From $65k to $175k by Becoming Her Own Boss With Copywriter Zafira Rajan

When Zafira Rajan was six years old, she went mute for a year. She grew up amongst a family of outgoing entrepreneurs, but you could always find her somewhere buried in a book immersed in stories or writing as her creative outlet. After many years of finding herself dissolving into other people’s voices, she found […]

When Zafira Rajan was six years old, she went mute for a year. She grew up amongst a family of outgoing entrepreneurs, but you could always find her somewhere buried in a book immersed in stories or writing as her creative outlet.

After many years of finding herself dissolving into other people’s voices, she found her own. Her journey uncovers the purpose and power behind discovering one’s voice and now she has created her own business helping other people discover their voices – this is her story.

Zafira Rajan’s Website: https://www.zafirarajan.com/

Josh:
Hi everyone. This week we’re here with Zafira Rajan. She is a launch copywriter, launch strategist and quiz panel strategist which is quite cool and very, what is that thing where things circle around? Circular, some word like that where it’s like you are doing quizzes, we do quizzes and it’s all good mojo. So glad to have you on. We went over some numbers before we hit record here and in her previous job she was making 65,000 a year Canadian dollars and now working for herself she’s at 175,000 and that’s quite an amazing jump, which is incredible. Just like at the beginning of a lot of these episodes it’s like, okay you’re here now, but how did that happen. Where did this start, how did you get here?

Zafira:
Oh, boy yeah. We got to go all the way back and thanks so much for having me Josh. It’s been quite a ride. So, I’ve been in business since 2015, officially working for myself. But I’ve always been a copywriter at heart. I originally grew up in Nairobi, Kenya. I now live in Canada and British Columbia just moved to the Sunshine Coast by the beach, which is wonderful. But I actually grew up on a chicken farm to a family of entrepreneurs and my parents were butchers. They ran a deli, they ran a bistro and I was always running around in gumboots and my swimsuit all day long, having to deal with all kinds of things. But, something that’s always stayed consistent since I was a kid is my obsession with reading and so you could always find me with my nose in a book. Even now I’m constantly reading multiple books at once and writing stories. I had poetry published at the age of 13 which is really random and super cool. I’ve been a creative writer from a really young age. There are way too many stories about mermaids than there should have been probably.

Zafira:
I always knew I’d be a writer of some kind back in the day. Journalism felt like a really big sexy field to get into and I thought I’d end up being an editor in chief somewhere. But when I went into university I actually started out doing an economics degree, which didn’t last too long because writers are not often the best mathematicians. So after failing Calculus I was like, “Nope not that’s not going to happen,” and decided to pursue English Lit. And along the way while I was at university actually got to be an editor in chief. I founded my own magazine for college women which was great and I think that was my first taste of not necessarily entrepreneurship, but leadership and spearheading something of my own. I assembled a staff team from scratch. I was actually studying abroad in Sweden at the time on exchange and was putting together a team back in Canada for when I got back. It’s a publication that still lives on until today which is awesome.

Zafira:
And after I graduated I tried, I think it was probably a year and a half in a marketing role for the university. But, I just had too many days where I was watching the clock hit 4:29PM and being like, “I could have done so much more with my day.” But, I just wasn’t built to be boxed into a structure and I’ve always been the kind of person to get things fast, have a lot of creative ideas and to just be doing the same thing day in and day out just was totally draining me. So, I ended up taking on a 60% contract, which was just for a year. I gave myself that year to build my business and build a roster of clients. As much as I’ve got that inner entrepreneur and risk taker in me, I also have the person in the back of my head that likes to be financially secure, that likes to know that I’m okay and know what whatever I’m building is sustainable and it’s going to last. So I just wasn’t going to dive in fully.

Zafira:
So over that year I built up clients. Originally I was doing social media management. I was writing blogs for people. I was pretty much taking anything that could come my way. I think as an early entrepreneur you’re like, “Well people want to pay me to do something that I actually enjoy, let’s do it.” And my role in my nine to five was as a marketing specialist as a graphic designer as well. So it was still really great and I got to still be growing in that position. And then in January 2016 I believe I took the plunge and I just, I was like I’m doing this full time. And I was still a marketing strategist and I was blending design and copy for clients for ads, for billboards, for campaigns. And my first project was a 10K project that totally freaked me out because I felt like I had no idea what I was doing. But I’ve always just taken the plunge, even when I felt super uncomfortable or that inkling of imposter syndrome and always just figured it out.

Zafira:
I think it was two years ago I actually started calling myself a copywriter. I stumbled across a podcast called The Copywriter Club which helped me realize that’s exactly what I was. I was a copywriter and after years of dissolving into other people’s voices I realized it was time to just create space for my own. So I ended up doing a writing workshop in Italy and I just booked it and decided to go and find my voice for a couple of days and I came back and actually started marketing myself. I think when a lot of us start out sometimes you get really dependent on word of mouth or you get dependent on referrals. At that time I was ready to start getting visible and have people know who I was. So, yeah I started calling myself a copywriter. I started niching down into the wellness, personal development space. It’s where I could just find a lot of alignment. And I started creating signature offers that have now been around for the last two years which are really awesome. So in brand messaging and launch conversion copy and more recently quiz panels which is really great. Use Interact for everything and all my clients.

Zafira:
Over the last year in particular have seen a lot of growth mainly through niching down, getting really clear on my audience and my offers. That revenue jump just has happened really organically. I think my first year was 80K, then it was 125K and then this year it’s been 175 and I hope to only keep on increasing that as I go forward. So in a nutshell that’s how I arrived to where I am now.

Josh:
That’s awesome.

Zafira:
So yeah.

Josh:
I didn’t grow up on a chicken ranch, but I worked on one.

Zafira:
Really? That’s so cool.

Josh:
Yeah. We used to go unload truckloads of baby chicks which is the cutest thing in the world.

Zafira:
They are the cutest thing ever.

Josh:
Oh, my gosh and they just bounce. They’re like lighter than air.

Zafira:
Yeah, I used to have them in my bath for real.

Josh:
Oh, my gosh.

Zafira:
No plastic duckies, just real little chicks.

Josh:
Just a real duck. That is a unique experience. That is a very unique experience. A couple of questions came to mind as you were talking. The first one is how do you feel that background growing up in that creative environment where your parents were doing all sorts of different things. How do you feel that impacted your propensity to follow that through in your own life? Because it sounds like the magazine was maybe your first foray into working for yourself. That happened pretty early on, relatively. Do you draw a connection there?

Zafira:
Yeah. I think my parents have always been super encouraging pursuing anything creative, even though I did have to debate my dad a little bit to switch from Economics to English in college. But, I always saw them innovating all the time. My dad’s a chef and he would come up with these incredible sandwiches that people still talk about today. Stuff like zebra sandwiches and ostrich sandwiches and all these crazy things. But, I felt very surrounded by creativity and I saw them actively using those outlets. So, whenever I was curious about something I got permission to do it. So, when I ended up living on my own and thinking about the path to go down on, I had seen them take a lot of risk. I had also seen them fail a lot. It was not all pretty and beautiful. We ended up several times having to move houses. We got robbed really badly when I was young. We were moving through a lot of extremes. It used to be either really good or really shaky.

Zafira:
So I saw them navigate all of that and still come out the other side, which has always given me hope to just take the risk, take calculated risk and not maybe thinking it through really well. But, that nothing could really hold me back from doing what I wanted to do. So, yeah and my parents are really different too. I think my mom has always been a little bit more artistic and my dad has always created with his hands and I think I felt very lucky to grow up in that environment where your imagination is prioritized. And they let you run with it. There’s something different about growing up I think on the other side of the world too. Growing up in East Africa the energy there compared to what I felt in Canada was just so different. The colors are vibrant. We’re outside all the time and whereas over here I tend to be stuck behind a laptop more so all day long, or there’s lots more gray dreary days.

Zafira:
So you feel inspired all the time. I was constantly inspired by everything which is why I was churning out poems about the wind at 11 years old. So, yeah it was a great environment to thrive and really grow up in and I don’t think I would have been an entrepreneur had it not been for that too. I used to help them out in their shop as well. I was standing on a little bathroom stool at the cash register when I was really young and I was very much a part of it. So it felt good to be part of something that they were building too and I always thought I could do the same for myself eventually.

Josh:
Yeah. That’s so cool. That’s so cool. Yeah I can resonate with some of that too like the creativity of being outside and just seeing natural things.

Zafira:
Totally.

Josh:
And being inspired by that. What prompted you to start that magazine in college?

Zafira:
Actually it’s a story rooted in rejection. I had been a writer at the university newspaper for a couple of years and while I was on exchange I had applied for an editor role which I thought would be inevitable given the experience I had and what I was working towards. But I wasn’t physically there and I lost it out to someone else. Instead of really taking that really hard, which I did for a few days. But then I was like, “Well, if I can’t fit into something else, I can create something of my own.” I just happened to be chatting with another exchange student who had told me, “Have you heard of this publication?” They opened chapters at various universities and I don’t think they’ve done anything in Canada yet, the organization at our campus. So I just applied to start a chapter at UBC which is my university and I took that rejection and funneled it into creating something of my own which turned out to be even better because it’s something I left my mark on. It’s a little legacy I created that’s still going on until today.

Zafira:
But if I hadn’t been initially rejected or gone through a series of interviews and really been through that grind, I think we all have been through that at some point where you start to question whether you’re really good at what you do. Rather you deserve these opportunities and now my solution is just to go and start it on my own if someone else doesn’t have a space for me in that room or just because it’s occupied by someone else doesn’t mean I can’t create something on my own. So that’s actually how it started.

Josh:
Yeah that makes a lot of sense. It’s like this is not going to work for me, so I’ll go do my own thing. On the topic of rejection and people not valuing you if that’s in line with what you’re saying. How has that played out now that you work for yourself all the time? And I would imagine there’s lots of opportunities for this to happen. At every stage, right? Maybe walk us through the stages. So at the beginning when you’re first trying to get clients and then the next stage where it’s like you’re charging more and then I don’t know what the other stages are. But maybe it’s as you’re advancing right, there’s always new opportunities for things to not fit. How do you coach yourself through that?

Zafira:
Yeah. That’s a lot of minds at work I got to say being an entrepreneur. It feels like a life degree and rewiring your brain constantly. I believe in the beginning just knowing how much to charge is the worst, especially when at the time it was a field that not a lot of people were getting into or were valuing. I feel the way people value copywriting today is very different than how they were valuing it a few years ago, especially conversion copy. So in the beginning I actually remember being rejected a few times because my prices were too low. That perception and value match just wasn’t there and I would be taking that feedback and being like, okay I’m actually pricing myself as a low commodity so people are not seeing me as high quality. It ends up being this very tricky dance over two years.

Zafira:
Initially I was also working more with corporate brands or in higher education and quite a few times I would be the only woman at that table, especially in marketing working with a bank for example or a credit union. I found it really challenging, especially as I was learning what other agencies were charging or other male writers were charging versus what I was charging and often getting rejected. So, honestly there was no formula. It was purely just trial and error and it was the more I was getting skills, the more I was learning, the more I was investing in myself because I was constantly investing in myself and learning. Not just business strategy, but learning how to become a better writer. I would then start factoring that into my price point.

Zafira:
I would say only over the last two and a half years have I hit this sweet spot where I know I’m charging my worth and I have the confidence to now start filtering out people. So, never in a million years would I have thought that over the last three months I’ve probably turned down $40,000 worth of work just because they’re not the right fit. Whereas originally I would have been like, “Yes please. Can’t wait to work on this.” But you go through that grind not just to see what you’re worth, but also to see who you enjoy working with and how you would like to work. I realized over a time I don’t like being on government contracts that go on for two years. That’s a lot of what I do now is a day rate and I can charge four figures for that comfortably now which probably if you told, if you were on the chicken farm that a long time ago she would have rolled her eyes.

Zafira:
I will also say that the political climate of this year has also really shifted value perception I think for people of color and the online world. I have noticed since George Floyd a lot more clients are an instant yes to high prices than they were before. So I think that’s important to mention because I’m sure I’m not the only person of color, woman of color in the marketing industry who’s starting to notice that. But I found that very interesting too. I think the doors are open to more spaces that we thought were inaccessible before and to more clientele that are ready to pay our rates that maybe weren’t before. So it’s been very interesting navigating that over the last few months as well.

Josh:
Yeah. If it’s okay I’m curious to learn more about what that experience has been like as a woman of color starting 2016 was the first year you were working for yourself?

Zafira:
Yeah.

Josh:
What have your experiences been of call it discrimination or just being rejected because of who you are and yeah. You mentioned maybe it’s shifted a little bit now. I’m very interested to learn more about what that’s been like.

Zafira:
Yeah. I mean I don’t know that I can’t ever say for sure if I’ve been rejected on the basis of my skin color. But, what I can say is that based on what I’m seeing now, there’s definitely been exclusion because of that. By that I mean, the amount of visibility, opportunities that are suddenly emerging or the amount of clients coming my way that are of a completely different caliber or to be honest that I’ve even been on calls with before and have not remembered me. But now all of a sudden are very eager to work with me, really speaks volumes because it’s showing me that there was a lot more within reach than I thought was possible. And I definitely have felt the shift of this year compared to last year where honestly it’s not like my prices have changed dramatically. I’m still as good a copywriter last year as I am this year. I’ve still got tons of great testimonials. But it feels like all of a sudden that there is this huge influx and this huge volume of people that are really eager to work with me, to collaborate with me, to bring me onto their stages or onto their platforms.

Zafira:
It’s been interesting to navigate because it makes you question whether it’s because of your talent or whether or not it’s because of your color. Whereas before you might be rejected on your color, where now it’s like you might be included just because of it. Where does your talent hang in the balance there? So that is its own mindset to work on its own. But I will say previously I have noticed that I’ve lost [inaudible 00:21:17] to other copywriters who are white and I’m not sure if it was ever because of my skin color or not. But to see a lot of those same clients coming back now really makes me question things a little bit and wonder if there was a value perception there and I can’t say for sure.

Zafira:
I will say that the representation I’ve seen on stages, on podcasts, you can now see a dramatic shift. I have been rejected multiple times for speaking opportunities or pitching podcasts whereas now it’s invitations versus me cold pitching which is a huge difference. I know I’m not the only person who’s been experiencing that. So it’s really a tricky dance of starting to see what we’ve been asking for, for so long. But I don’t think any of us were prepared for it to start happening all at once either. So, it’s just yeah, what a time we are living in and as an online entrepreneur I’m really curious to see whether it will stay this way for the next year or years to come or whether it’s just temporary. So I’m also having to be a lot more selective about what I’m choosing to bring on and what I’m not and what the collaborators commitment to anti-racism work are and those are conversations that I’m having to have now that I’ve never had to have with clients before or [inaudible 00:22:47] before. But I’m really grateful that I can have those conversations now or even have the conversation we’re having right now too.

Josh:
Yeah. I wanted to dig in more on that point of how it feels now. What are your thoughts about these opportunities coming your way. That you described it really well with this question of is it because of my talent or is it because of how I look? How is that feeling and then what would you hope to see happen in the following years? Five years, 10 years?

Zafira:
Yeah, that is a big question. In terms of how it feels now, I was having a conversation about this with someone the other day. It feels like suddenly being in a bright colorful candy store where you can have anything you want now, whereas before you had to wait outside and you had to have a VIP pass to get in. But you’re not sure which ones have ingredients that are going to mess you up or which ones are organic and actually good for you and are really there to have your best interest at heart.

Zafira:
I think it is still putting the burden on people of color to still decide and evaluate whether these opportunities are right for them. So it is both a good thing and a bad thing. Because you can now have anything you want, right? It’s like a buffet, but the choice is still, the ball is still in your court for you to do the work with each individual person and really suss out if this is tokenism or not basically, right? Do you want to be associated with my brand because of my skin color or is it because you do believe I’m a good writer? You believe I can produce results for your business and regardless of what I look like will I be an asset to you? Will I help you move forward? How does one actually navigate that?

Zafira:
I’ve had to have the most complex conversations with people now to really suss it out and make sure that if I’m part of an event, if I’m part of anything what does your anti-racism commitment look like? What is it going to look like going forward? And then it’s still up to me to decide, right? And so it’s really challenging. It feels like a bit of a game of smoke and mirrors. But at the same time, like I mentioned really overwhelming and I actually had major burnout over the last month and a half because I was not prepared. With greater visibility comes greater responsibility, comes greater pressure to also be showing up more to see things like my list doubling over a few weeks. To see things like my follower account dramatically increasing. To see a million more form submissions, but also means a lot more time spent replying to things. A lot more time manage … My team I’ve had to hire more people to start managing things. But that’s also another expense I’ve had to take on which was unprepared to do. Having to hire a speaking coach, another thing I never had to do.

Zafira:
So these are all things that are coming as a result. But they’re all going to lead to great things that I was not prepared for and I don’t think any of us were. So, it’s overwhelming. It’s wonderful at the same time. But I think we’re all trying to navigate it the best we can and just because I’m a person of color also doesn’t exclude me from doing the work of anti-racism, so I’m also undertaking that on my own. So, yeah I think it’s been heavy and exciting and just a weird whirlwind all at once.

Zafira:
In terms of what I would love to see five to six years from now, oh, God. I don’t even know. I think it’s still going to be really important for us to continue doing the work we’re doing now because it’s not just a moment. It’s something that we are going to have to constantly face and work through time and time again. If we’re not constantly putting in the work to be more inclusive, to really share the platform and put everyone on the same floor and stop putting everyone on a pedestal or [inaudible 00:27:32] people on a pedestal I think we’ll just open those doors a little bit more.

Zafira:
But really more than anything what I want to see is just more vulnerable conversations continuing to take place. I think when everything initially started happening I was really disappointed to see a lot of influencers, or a lot of leaders in our industry stay silent. They don’t know what to say or continue to stay silent and they’re still doing the work in the background. But, people are watching and I think it’s important for them to know that the people they’re investing in, the people they’re learning from are on the same journey of them, even if it’s going to be messy, because it’s still going to be messy. I’m still at that progress, not perfection. And as long as you’re showing that in your work and how you treat people, I think then people will continue to stay aligned with who you are and where you’re going.

Zafira:
Yeah, but I think what I’m seeing now is a lot more sharing. A lot more people extending their platform, extending their privilege to people like me and people like others. I just I really hope that that continues to happen and I hope that I will eventually be in that position where I feel like I can do that for others. I hope to see a lot more people of color leading this industry and being the people that everyone else looks up to, not just for their color, but for the work that they put in to get here because we all have put in a lot of work to get here.

Josh:
Yeah. I just the candy store analogy I think was so perfect because it just helped me picture it in my head. The oh, yeah that … yeah that makes sense that that’s what it feels like. All of a sudden all these doors are open but you’re like, “Which one’s a trap door?”

Zafira:
Yeah.

Josh:
And like what you were saying too about just the progress, not perfection. Yeah, there’s so many things that need to shift and change and it’s not going to happen immediately. On that subject I was curious if you’ve had positive experiences working with brands in this arena? Maybe even brands that have approached you after George Floyd and the protest started happening. Are there brands that have done a good job of being open or vulnerable about why they are approaching you that has made it … If it’s the candy store analogy, are there ones that have marked themselves as we don’t suck. In a way that’s felt to you that’s actually genuine?

Zafira:
Yes, absolutely. I will say that some of the clients I’ve gone into work with over the last two months, some of them have been the best clients I’ve ever worked with. To me what has made them really awesome is owning the fact that they are navigating this messy work right now and that they are open to learning and open to change and they really value what I bring to the table, not just for my writing ability, but for my lens and perspective. Which previously when I’ve tried to raise with clients in the past, has been a very challenging conversation or has been downplayed. Something like for example a sales page having a million testimonials and all of them are from white people, right? It’s just like is this solely your audience? Is this representative of who you are? Because if so, that’s okay but I think it’s important to acknowledge that you are an inclusive brand or this is the work you’re doing to make sure that people feel accepted here because we’re not just going to pepper people of color throughout just to symbolize that or to be token of your brand.

Zafira:
Now I feel like with some of the clients coming my way I can have those conversations really openly and they’ve been really great about that. They’ve been really open about the fact that they haven’t done things right up until now, but they’re willing to really make a difference and I see them actually putting in the work. I see them implementing my suggestions. I see them actually taking in and running with it, whereas before I’ve had multiple clients who just were like, “Thank you for that,” and haven’t really done anything as a result. It wasn’t more important than getting sales. But people are feeling the need to really get it right, or at least close to right this time around. The great thing is that they are coming back to work with me consistently, so I know it’s not just something we’ll do together on one sales page. We’re going to do it in your emails and we’re going to do it in your funnels and we’re going to continue working together to make sure you keep on doing this work.

Zafira:
So the fact that they’re not just hiring me once, but they are hiring me multiple times to continue working with them and to continue taking their brand to the next level and really supporting them in it has been really wonderful to be a part of and I feel a lot more valued than I did before. So the clients who are just open and transparent and who also I know really have been super intentional about hiring, whether it’s more women in their business or just hiring more women of color in their business. I can see I’m not the only one. It’s like the photographers that they’re hiring. It’s the designers that they’re hiring. They’re asking me for recommendations and I really do feel like I’m part of an extended team now that they’re putting their money where their mouth is which is really awesome to see, yeah.

Josh:
Yeah. A thought that came to mind as you were describing that ties back to something you mentioned earlier which is the burden is still on the people of color because you are describing that and it sounds like an additional thing you have to do.

Zafira:
Yeah.

Josh:
You’re not just a copywriter, you’re an advisor now. How does that feel?

Zafira:
Yeah I mean it feels both great and weird at the same time because it’s something I’ve been trying to do in my work and if you take a look at my about page, like inclusivity is one of my values. So, I think I say I always will try to gently call my clients in versus call them out and help them navigate that work more intentionally. It’s something I’ve always been prepared to do. It’s something that is really important to me. I’ve been noticing huge gaps for so long and I’m so glad that we’re finally talking about it. It also feels like, “Oh, my gosh took this long.” But at least we’re here and at least we’re doing it. So it’s a burden. It’s not a burden actually. I consider it like a responsibility to as a copywriter of color, as a female copywriter of color to really be mindful because ultimately what I’m trying to do is help brands connect with their audience and help them feel seen and understood. You can’t do that unless everybody feels that way.

Zafira:
And I’ve been on the receiving end of not feeling that alignment and noticing what is contributing towards that and I’m very selective with the clients that I take on now. So if we are aligned and I really believe in their mission, I believe in their product, I know that they produce results for people and I know that they have the impact to do a lot of good. I want to be a part of casting that net as far as wide as we can and making sure everybody gets to benefit from that. So it’s really tied in a greater purpose and a greater mission. So I always just really come back to my why at the end of the day and just be honest, having that responsibility is a big part of it because the more of us there are that can do this work and that can at least try, the better it’ll be for everybody else at the end of the day.

Josh:
Yeah. No that’s amazing. Just as you were describing that it sounds like in order to be able to do that calling people in. I have not heard that before, but I like that a lot. Calling them in instead of calling them out is like come in, rather than go away. But I could just from reflecting on my own experiences, having to work through your own feelings about it first. It’s offensive or it’s not right that you’re doing this. To let that go in order to be able to then draw someone in and call them in, rather than the initial reaction of this is not right, which would be the calling out. How do you do that?

Zafira:
It’s always on comfort level, not going to lie. The reason I choose the word calling in versus calling out is because I don’t think we have anything to gain from blame culture or shaming because that just puts everyone else in the same position like people like me have felt before which is excluded. If we’re going to move forward we need to all just be on the same page and we need to be able just sitting at the same table instead of me sending you to the corner to think about what you’ve done, right?

Zafira:
So, yeah how do you do that? Previously I had to be like, “I think we need to have a conversation about X, Y, and Z,” and make sure it was something that was held on a call not in comments back and forth on a Google Doc because I think it’s important for people to really understand the root of where it’s coming from or why I’m noticing this might be not as inclusive as you might think. Now it really feels like whereas before that we were going through that process more towards the end of wrapping something up and these are things I’m noticing. But now I feel like I make it really clear to my clients as we start things and as we’re moving through the research process. Every part of it is a lot more thoughtful because I feel like I have the permission to let it be. If I’m undertaking customer research I’m going to make sure it’s a diverse pool of people that I’m talking to. If we’re writing the copy I’m making sure we’re serving your audience extensively versus a lot more like done for you stuff that was coming my way before because I’m not getting onto bigger projects and I’m getting bigger opportunities. My clients also have the budget to be investing in that level of research which is really important.

Zafira:
So I feel like now I can have those conversations more at the beginning rather than the end and they are a lot more awkward and we can be moving through that process together and I can be coaching my clients through it to ensure that every step of the way we’re being really mindful. So I really enjoy being the strategist from beginning to end versus let me just write something up for you really quickly or just polish something up because that has always felt more like a bandaid for me and I know that those are symptoms of a bigger problem that’s going to keep on popping up and hindering your band later on, which is why my business model has shifted to really allow for that space and that process with my clients. So it’s really involved me changing how I do business and who I take on and being really careful about who I do align myself with because I have a lot more deeper conversations with them now before they come into my sphere.

Zafira:
That feels really good that I can do that now. I think before when you’re working for pennies, I didn’t really have that privilege and I do have privilege now because I have the demand and it’s up to me to decide how much of it I want to meet. It might not always stay that way, but this is the most aligned I’ve ever felt in my business in terms of who I’m serving and how I’m doing the work which is really important. I think it leads to better things all around.

Josh:
Yeah I like what you said about the bandaid versus the process. That makes a lot of sense and I can definitely see how that might feel from your end if a brand is like, “Here’s all of our stuff, can you make sure it’s good?” Versus starting from the beginning. Well, that’s very cool and very important. Well, we’re coming up on our time here, but thank you for just being open about your experience and open about just how this has all been for you. I think this is just one of many conversations that need to happen and things that need to be heard and thank you from our perspective in particular. This is the stuff that we need to be hearing. So really appreciate that and just really cool to hear your story too and going from the chicken ranch to where you are now. That’s so cool. So yeah, really appreciate you coming on and sharing with us.

Zafira:
Thanks so much Josh.

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Josh Haynam

Josh Haynam is the co-founder of Interact, a place for creating beautiful and engaging quizzes that generate email leads. Outside of Interact Josh is an outdoor enthusiast, is very into health/fitness, and enjoys spending time with his community in San Francisco.

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