Rhiannon Payne is a San Francisco-based entrepreneur, startup consultant, writer, speaker, & adventurer. She is also the Founder and CEO of Sea Foam Media & Technology, offering startups a wide array of services to help them tell their story and build exciting products to engage investors.
Rhiannon’s unconventional route to entrepreneurship began when she found success in running a six-figure business all while traveling the world. This is where her passion for remote work began, and what led her to publish her book, The Remote Work Era. She’s poured her heart and soul into writing this book to help other women discover their own paths to success, just like she did.
Rhiannon’s website: https://rhiannon.io/
Sea Foam Media: https://www.seafoam.media/
The Remote Work Era: https://remoteworkera.com/
Jessmyn:
All right. Hi, everybody, and welcome back to Interact’s Creator Stories Podcast. I’ve missed you guys, but I am your host Jessmyn Solana as you already know. And with me today, I have Rhiannon Payne. Hi, Rhiannon.
Rhiannon:
Hi.
Jessmyn:
So, of course-
Rhiannon:
[crosstalk 00:00:21].
Jessmyn:
Of course. Of course. And per usual, I will have Rhiannon tell her story, but just to give you a little bit of a background, she is the founder and CEO of Sea Foam Media & Technology, which is an agency working with tech startups. I want to hear more about that. And recently, you actually published a book. So you’re the author of a book called The Remote Work Era, and this is a guide for women to go remote and thrive in the new age of work. And this was published in just December of 2020, so it’s still pretty fresh, which is really exciting. And pretty cool, because you’re also based in San Francisco, so we’re pretty nearby. And of course, unfortunately, we couldn’t actually go see each other, but it’s nice to know that you’re nearby.
Rhiannon:
Not yet anyway. I think pretty soon there will be more opportunities for that, hopefully. But thank you so much for having me. It’s such a pleasure to be here and chat with you.
Jessmyn:
Of course, I’m so excited. We actually found Rhiannon through Twitter. And you had tweeted us, I think, was it us or was it our COO, Annie, that you tweeted?
Rhiannon:
It was your COO specifically.
Jessmyn:
Yeah.
Rhiannon:
But yeah, I tweeted you guys because I was actually using the Try Interact product as part of a really significant part of my marketing push for my book-
Jessmyn:
Oh, nice.
Rhiannon:
From December through March. And it was such a helpful tool for me just because of the quiz functionality. I already had a quiz that I had already written into my book, so I literally took the quiz from the book, sort of fleshed it out a little bit, and made an Interact quiz for women to identify the type of remote worker they are. And it was so amazing for my email marketing campaign, just a really crucial and just fun piece of that. So I really appreciated that.
Jessmyn:
I love that. Yeah, I know. I think it’s also such a clever way too to think about how you’re going to market your book. You’re like, “Wait, I already have something.” So tell us a little bit about a day in the life what you would do typically for your business and the women that you serve?
Rhiannon:
Of course, yeah, absolutely. So I’ve actually been running my agency, Sea Foam Media & Technology for going on four or five years now.
Jessmyn:
Wow.
Rhiannon:
And yeah, when I got started in 2017 I was working with a tech company based in Ireland, basically helping them with their manual data curation for the artificial intelligence they were building.
Jessmyn:
Whoa!
Rhiannon:
Yeah, it was super random and cool, and an experience like nothing I had ever experienced before. But I basically got to hire a team of 20 global contractors to actually manually curate through all of these photos that they had as training data for their AI. So, we were working around the clock manually tagging all of these different photos. And after a few months, that company in Ireland, they were able to close a $12 million Series B fundraise. So-
Jessmyn:
Whoa!
Rhiannon:
Definitely in big part to me and my company and my team, and that was just so rewarding to be part of that. So ever since then I’ve just been working independently and growing my agency and just working with startups all over the world on lots of different things from actually writing white papers and press releases and pitch decks and things for their companies. And on top of that, also providing software design and development services, because I have my partner, Justin Bowen, he’s just an incredible product manager and engineer, so we’ve been able to offer a full suite of services to our clients. Yeah, and it’s really amazing that we’ve been able to build out this team over the years and do that.
Rhiannon:
And obviously, we’re all remote and global across almost every timezone, which is pretty cool too, and which is what actually inspired me to write my book about remote work and basically outlining how other women can use remote work as an opportunity to create lives that are more flexible and more fulfilling and that better match their lifestyle goals. So yeah, most of last year I had one consulting client on retainer, but other than that I was just really pen to paper interviewing so many different women remote workers all around the world, and just putting all of this information together, all these different tips and advice, and guidelines, and stories from different people in this space who have been working remotely for a while. And it’s been really gratifying to be able to publish that at the end of last year, and just start getting feedback from women in my community who are pursuing remote careers or trying to grow in their remote careers at this super pivotal time for the workforce, I think.
Jessmyn:
Yeah, especially last year, right?
Rhiannon:
And this year. It’s amazing to see going into Q2 2021, there’s so many companies hiring right now online, so many remote job opportunities. I don’t think anyone’s ever seen the remote job market this hot, and-
Jessmyn:
Yeah.
Rhiannon:
So many opportunities out there. So it’s been cool after writing the book to also have my community on Facebook and Twitter and Instagram where I’m actually answering people’s questions and helping sort of guide people and mentor people as they make career changes. So that’s been really fun too.
Jessmyn:
Yeah, I love that, because even if you stayed within your job, and of course, a lot of people had to go remote last year, they were probably like, “What do I do? What am I doing here and how do I stay productive?” And all that stuff. So how did you get started? Take us back to the beginning. How did you get started in this business? I know you mentioned that your work first started with tech startups and then transitioned or? Go ahead.
Rhiannon:
Yeah, no. So I mean, I’ve been working in the tech and startup space for my entire career, the past 10 years. I got started I guess back in 2011 when I had always been sort of passionate about content creation and writing, and had always dreamed of sort of pursuing a remote flexible lifestyle where I could travel, because travel is something that’s really important to me. But I think for a lot of people, especially back in the beginning of the last decade it was really hard to imagine for the average person, how do I create a career that will allow me to pursue the things that are important to me in life and have the kind of lifestyle that I want?
Rhiannon:
So I saw that there were a lot of opportunities within the tech and startup space, and just kind of got started by taking small jobs locally in Los Angeles, which is where I was living at the time, and kind of building my way up in my career. A lot of sort of bullshitting early on to kind of get my foot in the door. And then from there, just finding mentors in my career, different managers and people that I was working with, and using those experiences to learn and grow.
Rhiannon:
And I was working for tech startups as an employee up until 2015, 2016, which is when I sort of branched off and started exploring opportunities to work for myself, because even though I was working remotely prior to that I think remote work was a really different space back then and there were different expectations that employers had when you worked remotely as a full time employee. Like, my employer at the time was great, but she was also pretty adamant that her employees sort of had a home base. And eventually, she wanted people who were more senior in the company to move and relocate to the company headquarters, which was something that I ultimately decided I wasn’t interested in doing.
Rhiannon:
So super different expectations than today in 2021, where people are now sort of used to this remote distributed work life. And I think employees now have different expectations of their employers, like employees want freedom, they want flexibility, they want to create their own schedules and work asynchronously, and to be able to work and travel simultaneously. So I think a lot more employers now see that and see that that can work, and are starting to embrace that a little bit, which is awesome.
Jessmyn:
Yeah, a fun fact actually, my fiance and I are a lot… Well, we were long distance, and the only reason we were able to go see each other so often from coast to coast was because we were both remote workers, and so we would bring our work with us. And we could stay for I think one time I had stayed in New Jersey for two months because I was able to actually just work from there and still keep up with productivity, get my stuff done, and still go see him, but…
Rhiannon:
That’s amazing, and that’s just life changing when you think about it. If your employer wasn’t open to you guys working remotely, that could have seriously changed your relationship. And it’s amazing you had that flexibility, it really can improve people’s lives in so many ways, just letting tech workers and knowledge workers have the space to do the things that are meaningful to them. It’s so crucial.
Jessmyn:
Yeah. So in 2016 was when you first decided, if I remember correctly, that you were like, “I want to do something for myself,” which sounds really intimidating, at least for me. I am trying to put myself in that shoes of like, “Okay, yeah, this isn’t really working for me anymore.” So what was that like? Were you also scared or to make that such a big decision?
Rhiannon:
I was nervous about it I think, but I also felt kind of ready to jump off the deep end just because my employer at the time she really wanted me to move and relocate. And when I wasn’t willing to do that, I think that the working environment got a little bit uncomfortable. Because the position started out remote, and I was living in LA, and there was no expectation of moving, but then as I sort of grew in the company and the company started to become more established and get an actual office space, things kind of changed and the expectations were different. And when I didn’t want to sort of move and uproot my life and commit in that way, it seemed like the only option at that point was to leave.
Rhiannon:
And I was fortunate that I did save a little bit of money, and I was able to sort of make that leap while simultaneously I decided I was going to move and leave LA, but I was going to move to San Francisco which is where my mom lives and lives today. So, yeah, I decided that I was going to stay with my mom for a few months and figure things out, and I’d be able to use my savings as a cushion while I sort of figured out what that next step would be. And while I was doing that I almost immediately got presented with a new opportunity. I was actually-
Jessmyn:
Oh, wow.
Rhiannon:
With my boyfriend, we were traveling in Japan together. And he had some kind of colleagues out in Tokyo who were people that he had talked about starting a business with previously, a software company. And they had never met in person before though. And when we all kind of met up because we were vacationing in Japan, they were really, the guys in Tokyo were just really interested in working with him. And I was kind of there and at the table, and they realized they also needed someone to come in and help with product management for the software they wanted to build and with marketing and branding, and all these other things which were skill sets that I already had. So it was really fortuitous that that happened, and this was like a month after I quit my job.
Jessmyn:
Wow.
Rhiannon:
Yeah, just this being able to do international work and travel and help build software for companies like The Ritz-Carlton in Tokyo and the Grand Hyatt in Tokyo, which were the clients and specifically that needed this product. It was a dream come true to me, so I was like, “Yes, sign me up.” Very kind of impulsive but incredible decision. And so I sort of joined as a co-founder and was able to help them develop and launch this product to the concierge teams at these hotels in Japan. And it went really well.
Rhiannon:
And unfortunately, the company wasn’t able to raise the funding that it needed to continue to grow and thrive and continue to pay me as someone who was working full time on it, because I think all the other partners were much more well established in their careers and I was just this 25-year-old who just quit her job and I was like, “You know, I actually do have to get paid. You know, I do have bills too.” So it didn’t work out long term, but that experience was what really made me feel so empowered to consider what am I going to do next? Do I really want to go back to working for someone or…
Rhiannon:
I have all of these skills that I was able to demonstrate in my role for this company Pinstop in Japan, why don’t I find a way to use these skills and help all kinds of different companies? So it just kind of I feel like there was less of a thought process behind it and it was more just something that started happening organically as I started thinking, “Why don’t I explore freelancing and consulting?” And it sort of once I got my first opportunity to work with the Irish company that I mentioned earlier, it sort of snowballed from there. And I scaled up the agency really quickly over the four or five years since then.
Jessmyn:
That’s awesome.
Rhiannon:
No, definitely very interesting experience. And yeah, there wasn’t… To answer your original question, really not a lot of… There wasn’t enough thought behind it for me to be scared, I think. I just really dove into every new opportunity that was presented to me because I was young and I was like, “YOLO, whatever, I’m going to try all these different things,” and somehow it actually worked out okay, so.
Jessmyn:
No, that’s awesome, though. So I heard you say you kind of dove into a few different things, and you tried freelancing, and you tried consulting and all that other stuff? Was there any point in trialing all of those things that you were like, “Okay, I tried this, here’s the pros and cons,” or did you have a process of figuring out like, “I want to keep pursuing this or try something new”?
Rhiannon:
I think that the beauty of consulting I think is that when you’re taking on multiple clients, each client is so unique and different in the kind of work that they need. Are they coming to me because they need me to write a white paper and a pitch deck for them? Are they coming to me because they’re looking for software design and development for their MVP? Are they coming to me because they need some combination of those two things, like they’re very early stage and they need the whole package, right? So every client comes in and has different needs.
Rhiannon:
And they’re also all in different industries. I do work with early stage startups, like seed to Series B, but that said they, they’re all sort of tackling different problems in different industries from agriculture technology to technology for rare coin trading to building software for nonprofits. Just so many different things. So each client experience was a unique experience for me, and I really enjoyed that diversity of work because it it’s hard for something to get old when you’re sort of going from contract to contract and doing all of these different things simultaneously.
Rhiannon:
That being said, all of that context switching has some downsides too, like obviously burnout is a big one, and that was something that I had to… There were some tough lessons for me in that over the years where I had to deal with figuring out how to sort of shape my client relationships and my business in a way that was personally sustainable for me where I wasn’t burning out, and also where making sure my income was consistent to the point that we can keep the lights on. And those were, I would say those pieces were the biggest sort of challenges that I had to encounter and work through as we grew the business. So it wasn’t as much thinking about the pros and cons of each different piece, it was more just having all of these very different, unique experiences working with all of these different people all over the world and sort of learning as we went along and growing from each experience.
Jessmyn:
Yeah, wow. I know it’s funny because I was like, “Is she reading my mind?” And that was my next question: what are some of the challenges?
Rhiannon:
Well, I feel like it was actually something… The most gratifying part of the process of writing my book for me was actually writing the chapter about how I built my business and all of the challenges that I encountered because it was important to me to be really honest and vulnerable about the challenges and struggles of being an entrepreneur and having inconsistent income, and trying to grow a company and dealing with burnout and mental health challenges. Those things were so real and oftentimes, very painful for me to deal with those sort of natural growing pains in a company. And because I sort of jumped right in, I wasn’t necessarily prepared for those things.
Rhiannon:
So part of the process of writing the book for me, that was almost very gratifying, and also a release was just being honest and vulnerable about those challenges, so that hopefully people who are reading it can be aware of some of the stuff that comes up and be more prepared than I was, and hopefully have a somewhat smoother journey, because I think that’s really the goal is sharing all of these stories in the hopes that people can learn from them and build sustainable businesses and have that success and that career flexibility without having to be a painful experience [inaudible 00:21:06].
Jessmyn:
Yeah. What would you say is maybe one or two of the biggest things that you learned through that process in working through these challenges to actually get your business running up… Oh, my gosh. Up and running, and to a point where you were like, “Okay, this is sustainable for me”?
Rhiannon:
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think one of the biggest lessons was learning more about finances, because I feel like this is something no one teaches us. I don’t know, maybe your parents taught you about finances and-
Jessmyn:
Well, I made my dad do my taxes this year.
Rhiannon:
Okay, so you’re probably on the same wavelength as me then. Growing up in school that was never part of the curriculum. My parents never sat down with me and taught me how to manage money. And I think that was one of the hardest things that I had to sort of learn, but also one of the best things I had to learn and I’m still learning to this day is how to manage your books and how to manage your budget and your finances. This is important if you’re an entrepreneur, and it’s really important even as just an individual.
Rhiannon:
So I think there’re so many good books about that topic specifically. I highly recommend anyone who’s looking into starting a business really get some financial education if they don’t already have it, even very basic stuff like budgeting is so crucial. And with me, running this company and also having contractors that I worked with who relied on me, and also having high expenses living in San Francisco, it was really crucial for me to figure out how to manage a budget and sort of continue to bring in consistent revenue and make it a sustainable thing.
Rhiannon:
On the opposite side of that too… Or not on the opposite side, but sort of as a secondary point, another thing that I learned that I think is super valuable is don’t be afraid to pivot or change what you’re doing. I think it’s a better approach to start small than to start big, and to sort of test the waters, test out a bunch of different strategies in terms of who your market is, who your ideal client is, how you’re branding yourself, how you’re approaching your market, what services you’re offering, what pain points you’re solving, all of these different things, continue to always test and iterate. And if something’s not working the way you want it to, you cannot be afraid to pivot in your business. There were several times where I just did a 180 and totally changed the sort of market that I was targeting. And that was important because I think in tech especially, things move so quickly, and it’s like you sort of have to be nimble and follow the trends and be able to pivot if you see a hot opportunity.
Jessmyn:
Yeah, I love that you brought that up because I think that, I mean, especially in my experience, working with entrepreneurs, just even talking about their quizzes, it’s a lot of times like they have an idea and they’ve tried it for X amount of time, but they feel like it’s not working. And at that point, I mean, not that it’s for me to question but sometimes I do wonder at what point do you say, “Let’s just try something else. Let’s test out something else or let’s take this idea and do a spin off of it and do that”? And I feel like there’s probably not really any correct answer of when, just if you’re ready.
Rhiannon:
Yeah, exactly. And I think too, I think a lot of people are really resistant to change. And it’s hard for people to admit that something’s not working sometimes especially when it’s related to your business. I think people really identify so much with their businesses and it’s so, so personal. And I did this too a couple times where I didn’t want to admit that I had been wasting my time on a certain thing, or that the path that I had been pursuing was the wrong one. But at the end of the day you are not your business, that’s not your identity, and your business can and should be changing and evolving as its own entity based on what your market needs are, what you want to be doing, or what’s actually going to be able to create a sustainable income for you. So you need to constantly sort of be reevaluating and ready to pivot. And it’s not personal, and I think that’s hard but it’s really not.
Jessmyn:
Yeah, I heard you say evolve, and that really stuck out to me because if you look at it in a different perspective of evolution which is more positive, versus this wasn’t working and now I’m feeling, that could totally change the game in your pivot, if you pivot and when you pivot, and how you pivot, and just where your business takes you next.
Rhiannon:
Exactly. And actually I love that you caught that because I wasn’t thinking about it necessarily in those exact terms. But absolutely, it’s about the evolution and growth of your business, not in as… Even if we go down a path that isn’t working or we fail in some way, it’s like you’re still… Like a campaign doesn’t work or a quiz doesn’t work, you’re still learning something from that experience. Maybe you feel like you wasted time or wasted money, but there was an important lesson there that’s going to allow your business to evolve and be better than it was before.
Jessmyn:
Yeah, I love that. Earlier you mentioned clients relying on you, and this was more when you were talking about financials and figuring out budgets and stuff like that, but how do you deal with the pressures of wanting to be sustainable in order to pay for yourself and continue on, but also realizing people hired you for something and for a job and you have to pull through with that?
Rhiannon:
Yeah, absolutely. It’s really hard, especially when you’re juggling multiple clients. And when you’re working with early stage companies specifically, it can be very high pressure, because there’s a lot on the line for these founders. A lot of these founders are raising their first rounds or they’re self-funding something, and it’s there’s a lot on the line for them and a lot of pressure, and they’re really depending on you to pull through. And at the end of the day, I mean, you can only do the best that you can do. They hired you for a reason, because you as the agency owner or the consultant are probably the best person for the job. That’s why the relationship started from the beginning.
Rhiannon:
And I think we’re all humans, and you have to just kind of clearly communicate with all of your clients and remain fully transparent with your clients throughout the process of working toward their goal with them and also have shared respect and understanding on both sides, that everyone’s human, everyone has a lot going on. And if there’s something that comes up, just having that respect and transparency and understanding I think is so important, because a lot of times things that may seem or feel urgent to you or to your clients, it’s usually not the end of the world. Usually a lot of deadlines are malleable. And if you have to sort of push a deadline for whatever reason or there’s something you’re concerned about in the project, to be honest and transparent is the best possible approach. I hope that answers your question.
Jessmyn:
Yeah. Well, it does. It does. I’m even thinking of when we have our own deadlines, and they change all the time, right? And they change all the time. But I think for me, at least, I was curious because I mean I don’t work in on a consultancy base. I’m an employee of a company, right? So it’s a little bit different. And yeah, I find that super interesting because I think for me, especially, I mean I 100% I’ve said it before I have imposter syndrome. So for me, I think what I would be most worried about if I were in that position is, “Oh my gosh, if I don’t get this done I’m done for.”
Rhiannon:
It happens so much, I mean, I think for anyone who’s working at a company or consulting or running an agency. I deal with a ton of imposter syndrome, especially lately. Even just going through the process of sort of spilling my heart out about all of my business experiences into my book and putting that out into the world, made me feel so vulnerable at so many different points and made me feel like an imposter in so many different ways, and I really had to sit with that a lot and work through some of that in therapy. But at the end of the day you got hired for a reason, whether it’s by your employer or by your client. And like I said, we’re all human, we’re all doing the best we can. And when something comes up, and something happens or doesn’t go right, or a deadline has to be moved, it truly isn’t the end of the world.
Jessmyn:
Yeah.
Rhiannon:
I don’t think, at least when we’re working for tech startups, none of us are curing cancer, right? These are important projects and important goals, but we as people are important too. And if things don’t go as planned, that doesn’t make us a failure. That’s very natural and very normal. And I’ve taken over for other consultancies and other agencies before that weren’t able to deliver for clients that I then took on, and that happens a lot.
Rhiannon:
I think that you have to remember that it’s not just you, there’s other people too out there dealing with the same feelings of imposter syndrome, and worried that they’re going to fail themselves or their clients, and that’s just life, and that’s just business and how things go, and you just have to always do the best you can do, and be honest, and be transparent and communicative. And if your client or your employer doesn’t understand and isn’t respectful of you if something does happen, that shows that they’re probably not a great person to work with.
Jessmyn:
Yeah. Yeah. I think that’s such a big thing too to… I don’t know. It kind of goes back to when you’re talking about you need to constantly be reevaluating and checking in, especially with yourself. And I think that’s one of the biggest things to check in on is do you feel like you’re being respected in this space?
Rhiannon:
Absolutely. And that’s been one of my big challenges too that I kind of touched on in the book is especially when I was early on in my consulting career, dealing with clients that were yes, they were paying me what I felt like was just a ton of money, but especially as a first time consultant, right? The first time you sign a five figure deal, you’re like, “Oh, my God, this is so much money.” But then you sort of compare it to what other people in the industry are charging, and you’re like, “Oh, wait.” But that’s obviously sort of part of the process, finding your pricing and growing to know your value.
Rhiannon:
But I think for me, at the beginning, it was also like, it was like, “Oh, my God, they’re paying me so much money,” but then dealing with situations where the expectations were unfair, or unreasonable, or went beyond the scope of work, or I didn’t feel respected by the person who hired me, and that happened so many times. So it was a hard lesson to figure out how do you deal with those people? How do you deal with those situations? And When do you decide that it’s just time to let go of a relationship?
Jessmyn:
Yeah.
Rhiannon:
That’s extremely hard I think for anyone to do whether it’s a client relationship or an employer relationship, but it’s easy for work relationships especially in the startup space to get toxic or for clients to disrespect their contractors or for companies to disrespect their employees, and learning how to recognize those things and recognizing when you feel like something’s uncomfortable and speaking up, and if you need to sever ties doing that, that’s hard, but it’s an important thing to learn.
Jessmyn:
Yeah, I heard you say coming to know your value, which I think is a huge point to touch on, because I mean, I see it in Facebook groups all the time where people are asking how to accurately price themselves or they have a situation where they feel disrespected or they’re not getting what they feel like they’re worth, they don’t know what to do. I guess my question from here based off of that is, what did you do in that process? And I’m sure it didn’t happen overnight, but what did you do in that process of figuring out like, “Okay, you know what, this is my value, this is how money-wise, this is how much I’m worth,” but also in terms of how you work, what your boundaries are, in terms of value?
Rhiannon:
Yeah, absolutely. And it’s something that I’m constantly evolving on. I think, specifically as women in the space too I think so many of us do deal with imposter syndrome, and do struggle to put ourselves out there and ask for what we’re worth, and to stand up and advocate for ourselves when we’re in professional situations that don’t feel right or don’t feel comfortable. I’m evolving and learning on this constantly. I had a retainer client for most of last year, while I was writing my book. And for me, in that relationship, I went through a lot with that particular client. There were some issues where I felt like I was being harassed, where I was being… I and other workers within the organization were being treated unfairly.
Rhiannon:
And it was a great experience for me in that it was an opportunity for me to really exercise all of the things that I had learned the years prior from my work consulting. I was in a space in my life and my career where I was ready to stand up, be honest, be transparent, and say, “No, this isn’t okay.” And I was able to use those lessons from past relationships to advocate for myself, and call people out when it was needed, and stand up for other people that I worked with. And that’s really, it’s difficult every time you do it no matter where you are in your career because yeah, it’s just hard, and I think for women especially, it’s I think a lot of us tend to avoid dealing with conflict like that, or at least I do.
Jessmyn:
Same.
Rhiannon:
It’s really difficult, but I think we just have to keep pushing ourselves because it does go… To speak to your original question and knowing your worth, that’s what it really goes back to is over time you really learn to… You understand how valuable you are to the organizations you work for. And employees, especially in the tech space today, we’re not just replaceable or disposable. Sure, anyone can be replaced, but it’s not an easy task. Our employers and our clients really rely and depend on us, and we do have power in those situations.
Rhiannon:
Our value, once we understand how valuable we are to the people who hire us, and the organizations that hire us, that’s when I think it becomes easier to start standing up and speaking up and ending relationships when we know that they’re not working. So like I said, hopefully I’m answering your question [crosstalk 00:39:09]-
Jessmyn:
Yeah.
Rhiannon:
It really goes back to once you do see how valuable you are to that organization or to that person, then it’s easier to speak up for yourself, I think.
Jessmyn:
Yeah, I love that. So you mentioned that you were writing your book last year. Was that already the plan or were you just one day, during the pandemic were like, “I’m writing a book and it’s happening”?
Rhiannon:
I’ve always dreamed of writing a book, and I know that age is such an arbitrary thing, but for whatever reason I was like, “I really want to publish my first book before I’m 30.” And I’ve turned 30 in June.
Jessmyn:
Wow. Congrats.
Rhiannon:
Thank you. I’m excited. But I started planning this book in 2018 actually, when I was giving my first conference talk in Amsterdam, and I was talking about leading globally distributed teams which was way more of a hot topic back in 2018 I feel like because fewer people were doing it.
Jessmyn:
Yeah.
Rhiannon:
Even though a lot of people were, it was like it wasn’t a mainstream thing. So the conference organizers asked me to talk about remote team leadership and what it’s like to work with people across many different time zones. And as I started preparing that talk, I was like, “Wow, I’m so passionate about this subject.” And I started thinking about all the ways in which working remotely and collaborating with people all over the world has changed my life in so many different ways, and just has really allowed me to create a lifestyle that I’ve always dreamed of where speaking to what we talked about at the beginning of the conversation a little bit. I had always dreamed of being able to travel extensively, and sort of create my own schedule and work with people all over the world, and work with clients in Japan and Europe and all over. That’s my version of living my dream or living my best life despite all the ups and downs that goes with it.
Rhiannon:
So I was so excited and passionate and engaged preparing my talk and speaking on those topics. And after I did that, I was like, “There’s so much great research and stuff that I put together for this talk. I feel like this is a great opportunity to take this and turn it into a book, because I’m very driven to continue to keep talking about these topics and these issues and these experiences.” So that’s when I sort of started planning the book and started gathering interviews and seeing who would be interested in being interviewed, and creating an outline. And I did write some early content even in 2018, and early 2019.
Jessmyn:
Oh, nice.
Rhiannon:
When you’re an entrepreneur, you never know how things are going to go with life and business. In early 2019, things took a turn, I was dealing with a lot of burnout, and the book was something that I just I had to put aside in that moment. And so when the pandemic started in March of 2020 I was actually about to leave the country and go to Buenos Aires for a few months-
Jessmyn:
Oh, wow.
Rhiannon:
To work remotely down there. And I was super excited to do that. And then COVID happened, and flights were canceled, and that’s no longer a thing. So I was like, “This really is an opportunity now for me to actually sit down and finish this project because this is something that’s so meaningful to me, and now is clearly the right time to be talking about these issues because everyone’s working remotely. If I’m going to write a book about remote work it has to be 2020.” So that’s just sort of how things panned out. So I really dedicated myself to finishing the book last year and literally finished all of the things right before New Year’s 2021.
Jessmyn:
Wow.
Rhiannon:
And published it. I think it was December 28th is I think when the paperback version was available to purchase, so.
Jessmyn:
Oh, my gosh, that’s awesome. It reminds me of… I know it’s cliche, but totally reminds me of just everything happens for a reason. It’s almost like you were meant to put it aside, and not that fate knew this was going to happen or anyone knew this was going to happen, but it just happened to work that way and it worked out. And I’m sure you got a lot of good research and stories off of a lot of people either starting to go remote or have been remote for a while.
Rhiannon:
Exactly. And it was a fun mix. I interviewed close to 100 people. And I think narrowed it down to I think 50 to 60 people, and stories and quotes were actually able to be included in the book, just because there was some stuff I had to cut out too that I’m sort of putting aside for now that might go into a sequel later. But I think the timing was just right because COVID and the switch to remote work changed what I was writing so much.
Rhiannon:
And the first chapter in the book is sort of centered around how COVID changed so much for so many people, and despite all of the hardships we encountered globally, and all of the pain and crazy things that were happening in the world, and just awful things that were happening, it was an opportunity to collectively open our eyes to what it means to work and how things can sort of be done differently, and how we can sort of live our lives differently. So I think that changed a lot and made it a more impactful and more important book at the end of the day. So, exactly like you were saying, it’s not that it happened for a reason necessarily, but I think it did work out when it was supposed to happen.
Jessmyn:
Yeah. Yeah, I think oh, man, I could go on talking about going [inaudible 00:45:41] for-
Rhiannon:
I feel like especially those of us too that have been able to work remotely before the pandemic especially, it’s such a great topic because I think a lot of us are so passionate about it, because like you were saying, it really changed your life and [inaudible 00:45:58] has changed so many people’s lives for the better.
Jessmyn:
Yeah. When you were saying you might not be in a relationship right now, I was like, “Oh, my gosh, I might not be. Who knows?”
Rhiannon:
I’d like to put it so bluntly, but I’m sure that made such a huge difference for both of you.
Jessmyn:
Yeah, it totally worked out. Just happened to work out. It was crazy. They went remote, and we went remote, and I was like, “Why are we still only seeing each other for four days a week when we can work and stay with each other for longer?” So yeah, game changer.
Rhiannon:
I love that for you, and I love that for your relationship, and just I think that there have been a lot of people who have struggled in this transition just because the world, everything that’s going on, and also having to abruptly work from home during a pandemic is a lot. But I think as we sort of get vaccinated and slowly start to return to some semblance of normalcy it’s people are really going to start experiencing what true remote work is and what true work flexibility is and start to figure out how to shape their lives in new ways, and that’s really exciting.
Jessmyn:
Yeah, something that I was just thinking about was I mean, I’m speaking more from experience because my sister has a one-year-old. And so when she went remote last year, it was I mean, obviously it was nice because she was like, “I wouldn’t have had this time with my new baby had I had to go to work every day.” But I do like from just seeing it and also what she tells me, it is so hard to work remote, do your job, but also think about your kids, which I’m sure happened for a lot of people and entrepreneurs this year of course, whether they were already established in their business or they were just starting or they had to pivot to this because things like that. So was there any? I’m sure you probably have, but any kind of story of how maybe some women who had kids or even men who had kids were working remote and how they processed through that?
Rhiannon:
Oh, yeah, absolutely. And that’s actually a big part of chapter two of my book. It sort of was dedicated to talking about the experiences of working moms who had to make this switch during the pandemic, because I’m not a mother myself, but I have a lot of friends who are new mothers and who had that experience of having to juggle their job, and childcare and all of these household duties. And I think it was someone coined the term, the double, double shift for working moms-
Jessmyn:
Wow.
Rhiannon:
Is the term that was sort of used to talk about the experience of being in quarantine, and juggling all of these different things. And statistically, I provided some statistics in my book, but women with children were working so many more hours a week just trying to keep it all together without outside childcare help in many cases, much more so than working fathers. And it was a huge challenge. And there’s no easy answer, like companies and even at a higher level, even fundamentally almost at a regulatory level, companies and people who are making laws around the workforce really need to consider working mothers more as we sort of transition into this workforce, this globally distributed and remote workforce of the future.
Rhiannon:
And I know that last year in I think, April of last year, a bunch of companies like Etsy and Uber and PepsiCo all came together to basically sign a working parents pledge committing themselves to providing more telecommuting options for working parents and more flexibility during the switch to remote work. And I think it’s so important that we hold companies to these standards. And if we’re able to do so, it could really, this could open up a whole new world for working mothers after the pandemic, to have more flexibility in their lives, to take care of their children and spend time with their children while also not having to make sacrifices in their careers, because unfortunately so many women were pushed out of the workforce during the pandemic for this reason. So we have to look at these issues carefully, and hold companies accountable to make sure that this truly can be a new era of work where women have the support and the structures in place that they need to actually thrive moving forward.
Jessmyn:
Yeah, I love that. I’m thinking of this, it was a meme I think of this I’m assuming mom because there was toys in the picture, but she has her coffee table with all these boxes, and her laptop and she has her kind of suit work shirt up top, but all around her just all these toys. And there’s probably if I remember correctly, there might have been a kid running past, things like that. And I was just like, I don’t have kids myself either so I never thought of it. And I can’t imagine what that transition would be like, so it would be really interesting to check your book out and actually read some of those experiences.
Rhiannon:
Absolutely. And I provided a lot of statistics around this double, double shift during COVID, but also stories from people who went through it. So definitely check it out. It’s in chapter two of the book.
Jessmyn:
Nice.
Rhiannon:
Yeah.
Jessmyn:
That’s awesome. Well, thank you so much for telling us all about your book and your story. Do you have any last minute parts of your story that you think would be really interesting for listeners to hear?
Rhiannon:
I feel like we covered so much ground in the… I can’t believe it’s only been 40 minutes I think [inaudible 00:52:38] because yeah, I feel like it’s been longer. I’ve really enjoyed the conversation. Nothing specifically that I can think of, but I would say if you’re interested in remote work, if you’re a remote worker yourself or you’re thinking of pursuing this path, definitely check out my book. You can find it at remoteworkera.com. And it’s available in print or in ebook right now. The ebook is only $2.99 through the Amazon Kindle stores, so definitely check it out. There will also be an audible version available probably in the next few months.
Jessmyn:
Oh, that’s awesome. And where else can other people find you online?
Rhiannon:
Of course. So I am, like we were talking about earlier, pretty active on Twitter. And I’m very responsive there as well. So twitter.com/Rhiannon_IO. And I also have a community on Facebook for women remote workers and women who aspire to go remote. And that’s on Facebook if you search for The Remote Work Era: Women Going Remote, you can find my community and request to join. And I’m pretty active there sharing different opportunities and kind of answering questions, and providing mentorship whenever I’m able to.
Jessmyn:
Love that. So I’d like to close it out with a couple of last minute questions just for fun, but if you could go back to the beginning of it all and time travel, what is the single piece of advice that you would give yourself?
Rhiannon:
I think go and buy Dogecoin. Let me think.
Jessmyn:
Right? Let me go back to last week and tell myself buy it right now.
Rhiannon:
Just go back a month and put my entire savings in Dogecoin. I’d love to do that. But otherwise, I would just encourage myself to continue taking risks and trust the process, because I think if you do want to sort of take a unique path, become an entrepreneur, work remotely, be a digital nomad, do something different from the norm, you have to sort of have enough trust and faith in yourself to know at the end of the day that whatever happens, you’re going to be okay and it will work out in the long run.
Rhiannon:
So I would tell myself, keep taking risks, trust yourself, trust your instincts and your intuition. And things won’t work out exactly as you think they will but it’ll work out at the end of the day, and you’ll find yourself in some really interesting situations, and have some pretty amazing life experiences, and you’ll learn some really important lessons. So, definitely keep taking risks and having faith in yourself for sure.
Jessmyn:
That’s awesome. So my last question, if you… I guess, what are three things that most people wouldn’t know about you?
Rhiannon:
Three things people wouldn’t know about me. I mean, I can think of super obvious things that probably everyone knows is my two cats are the loves of my life. They were in my acknowledgments of the-
Jessmyn:
Oh, God. I love that.
Rhiannon:
So I’ve been living with my brother and my boyfriend Justin for the whole pandemic, we’ve been living together. And at the end of my book in my acknowledgments or my about the author bio or something, it was like, “Rhiannon wrote this book from her home in San Francisco, where she lives with her boyfriend and her brother and her two cats, Gigi and Louie.” And they were both laughing at me, they were like, “So wait, you named the cats, but you just called us like your boyfriend and your brother? Thanks.”
Jessmyn:
That’s hilarious. I would do the same thing.
Rhiannon:
Yeah, [inaudible 00:56:53] honestly. So yeah, my cats are like my entire world. I’m a crazy cat lady. But something more unique, I guess, I actually lived on a sailboat for a month and a half-
Jessmyn:
Cool.
Rhiannon:
Yeah, with my cat Gigi. So when I was transitioning between living in LA after I got my first remote job, before I moved to San Francisco, I actually lived on a sailboat in Marina del Rey with my cat. And I rented this boat from this really weird sailor on Craigslist. It was such a bizarre situation.
Jessmyn:
Yeah.
Rhiannon:
But I was like, he was trying to rent out his boat for 1,000 bucks a month and I was transitioning, and I was like, “Well, this is definitely cheaper than rent in LA and it would be really cool to live on a boat, so.”
Jessmyn:
That’s crazy. What was that like?
Rhiannon:
It was really interesting. I had to use this shared shower bathroom in the Marina, which was a lot actually.
Jessmyn:
Yeah.
Rhiannon:
But other than that, it’s really cool waking up and just looking outside and seeing sea lions and herons and meeting people that were all part of this Marina community. It was wild. Definitely we’ll never forget that experience. And it’s also inspired me, I’d really love to get a houseboat someday.
Jessmyn:
Yeah, that sounds awesome. It’s kind of like one of those things you never think you’re going to do.
Rhiannon:
Yes.
Jessmyn:
And then when you do it you’re like, “Whoa. I really like this.”
Rhiannon:
I was struggling so much to find the right apartment situation to live in that was month to month. And when I saw this fricking boat on Craigslist I was like, “Okay, we’re just doing this, so.”
Jessmyn:
It’s happening. It’s happening.
Rhiannon:
Smartest decision in the world, so I thought, “Okay, so.”
Jessmyn:
Love that.
Rhiannon:
And I guess one last thing that I can think of, getting to live briefly in Japan and work out there was one of the coolest experiences of my life and also very personally significant to me, because my grandma who I lived with when I was a kid and who had a really big role in raising me, she actually lived in Japan for three years.
Jessmyn:
Oh, wow.
Rhiannon:
Yeah, when she was in her 40s. And her house was full of stuff from Japan, and she had so many stories. And she taught me how to count to 10 in Japanese and that was a big part of our relationship was her sharing those stories with me. So it was also-
Jessmyn:
Oh, that’s awesome.
Rhiannon:
Professionally significant, but also super personally significant, and just amazing that I could feel connected to her in that way. That was really cool.
Jessmyn:
Yeah, I love that. Japan is one of my top places I really want to go to.
Rhiannon:
You have to go. It’s so beautiful.
Jessmyn:
Yeah, I heard it’s so pretty there, and then of course also the food. But yeah, top places, hopefully will.
Rhiannon:
Absolutely, for sure. You can be, if you like the digital nomad thing go out there and work.
Jessmyn:
I know. Oh my gosh, I don’t know what I’d do if I could… I don’t know if I could digitally nomad. I’m trying to make it a verb. I don’t know if I could be one, but I don’t know if I could be one in another country. I feel like though for me, if I don’t just leap into things and I don’t just say, just do it, just do it, then it’s never happening.
Rhiannon:
I mean, I think that we’re all probably a little stir crazy after this pandemic experience.
Jessmyn:
Oh, yeah. Awesome. Well, thank you so much again for being on our show with us.
Rhiannon:
Of course, thank you so much for having me. It was such a pleasure to get to chat with you and get to know you a little bit better and Try Interact after having such an amazing experience using your products. So I really appreciate it.
Jessmyn:
Yes. Well, guys, we will also link Rhiannon’s information so you can find her, all the links that she mentioned on the show. And then of course, when you hear this, you can also watch the video on our YouTube, so check that out. All right guys, well, thank you so much, and we’ll see you next time.
Rhiannon:
Okay, bye. Thank you.