For the Season Premiere of Creator Stories, we are thrilled to be here with Interact’s very own Chief Evangelist and quiz queen, Chanti Zak. Chanti is a quiz funnel expert and teacher, conversion copywriter, and the brains and brawn behind our conversion-focused quiz templates.
She’s worked with thousands of our customers directly over the years, and through that work has helped them double, triple, quadruple, and 10x their businesses with Interact quizzes. On this episode, Chanti joins us to dive deep into power of connection-driven quiz funnels and their unmatched ability to scale your biz.
Take Chanti’s quiz to find out what kind of quiz you should create: https://chantizak.com/
Jessmyn:
Hi everyone. And welcome back to Interact’s Creator Stories podcast. Of course so excited to be with you here today. I’m your host, Jessmyn Solana. And with me today, I have the quiz queen with me, Chanti Zak. Hi, Chanti.
Chanti:
Hi. Thanks for having me.
Jessmyn:
Of course, thanks for being on the show with us today. I’m really excited to have you on here because of course we do have a big announcement. But for those of you who are not familiar with Chanti, she is a quiz funnel strategist and teacher that is obsessed with psychology, interactive marketing, and getting brag worthy results for her students and clients. She believes boring is the enemy, neutral is a death sentence. Oh my gosh, I need you to elaborate on that part. And real talk is the way of the future, which I love and totally aligns with Interact. But in your spare time you can find her hanging out with her kids, learning how to… Is it homestead, homestead, homestead?
Chanti:
Yeah, homestead. You got it.
Jessmyn:
I’m like I can’t read. Or binge watching Chef’s Table. Oh my God, I actually can’t watch cooking shows because it makes me very hungry, but-
Chanti:
I have a solution for you for that. You have to eat while you’re watching. The only way.
Jessmyn:
People have told me that and I’m just like, “I can’t because then I’ll probably just eat for hours.” [inaudible 00:01:27]. But besides you having your own online business, we have this huge announcement because Chanti is actually our new chief evangelist, which is basically an ambassador of Interact voice of customer. Chanti, do you want to add on to that, of exactly what that means?
Chanti:
Yeah, totally. Well, I feel like I already do all the things that are actually the description of the whole role, which is really just promoting Interact as my personal favorite quiz hosting software. And I was already doing that. So that’s part of it, but also I think that the added awesome is I get to collect feedback from my students and clients and all the people in my world who are using Interact or who are looking for a quiz hosting software. And what do they want, what do they think could be improved? And reporting back to you guys on those things so that we can continually improve the product, not from a place of assumption, but from a place of confidence that this is what our ideal customers really want and need.
Jessmyn:
Yes, I love that. I love the way you said it because we did always take customer feedback to heart and the way we used to do it was just based off of… I mean, we still do it this way, but the way we usually do it is based off of how many times someone’s requested the same thing. And that could take almost maybe months, years until we we’re actually like, “Okay, this is something we want to implement,” whereas now that we have you as chief evangelist, you can tell us like, “Hey, this is actually a priority. I’ve seen it this many times in the last, whatever weeks, whatever months.” Or based off of your own experience using it, you can tell us, “This is exactly what you guys need.” So updating product. And then also just making sure that the content we put out makes sense for our customers and is actually teaching how to create that quiz.
Chanti:
Yeah. Exactly. So I’m super excited because people tell me all the time what they’re looking for, what they’re struggling with in relation to quizzes on both the strategic side and the tech implementation side. So we’re marrying both worlds in an attempt to give people everything they could possibly need to be really successful with quizzes.
Jessmyn:
Yeah. Love that. So I know I gave a brief overview of what your own business is. Do you want to elaborate a little bit more on who your usual clients are, what you do exactly and what services you actually give people?
Chanti:
Yeah, for sure. Well, I’m all about quizzes as you know. So there’s a number of ways that I support online business owners in bringing their one of a kind quiz to life. One way is with my one-on-one clients. So whether it’s just giving them a strategy that they can go and run with or doing it for them. My team helping out because I’m no longer just a one-woman show on that side of things. But that’s how it started, is I would create quiz funnels for clients in all different industries, really. Everything from SAS and e-commerce to personal brands in lifestyle and business development, in alternative health and wellness, every industry.
And yeah, just building that out for them one-on-one and I love doing that, but eventually people started coming to me and asking for me to teach them how to do it, both business owners and copywriters or strategists who wanted to offer quizzes as a service. So I started teaching my system that I developed over years of working one-on-one with clients. And so now there’s two sides of my business. One is the teaching side where I have a few different programs that I take people through to help them build their quiz and all of the assets that would happen after someone opts in to their quiz, as well as doing that one-on-one work with clients.
Jessmyn:
That’s the whole shebang right there.
Chanti:
Yeah.
Jessmyn:
That’s really a lot. And I caught you saying earlier you used to be a one-woman show and now you have a whole team. Do you want to take us back to the beginning? I think I first talked to you in 2017, but I feel like you already were into quizzes before that. But take us back to the beginning. Tell us how you actually got started in your own business.
Chanti:
Yeah. Well, and I feel like the whole quiz niche is super random. Matt and Josh, they were some of the first… I think they were the first quiz hosting company out there.
Jessmyn:
They’re the first I had of.
Chanti:
So they latched onto that idea and ran with it and sort of similar for me. There wasn’t really that many other copywriters doing it and I just ran with because it has a niche. Because I had one super amazing case study from when I was working full-time in one company and I knew that to be successful as a freelance copywriter at the time, I needed to zero in on something that I’m really good at, that I can get people consistent proven results and carve out that niche. So it was a full on experiment. I didn’t know if it would work, but I just ran with it and started doing the super uncomfortable task of pitching businesses who we wanted to work with or be on their podcast and using that quiz angle.
And I wasn’t even very good at it at the time. I didn’t really know what I was doing, but I quickly figured it out and refined my process through experience. And then suddenly there was more demand than I could actually supply. So yeah, interesting dance of working a lot. Oh my gosh. I’ve been on the brink of burnout so many times, but yeah, building a team and training them in my own methodology has been incredible because suddenly we can serve way more people. And the whole process behind what we’re building just keeps getting better and better. And then I can take that and share it with my students and with anyone who’s using Interact as well. So it’s pretty neat.
Jessmyn:
Uh-huh (affirmative). Yeah. I will say every time I talk to someone, well, customers, I mean, even some people in our partner program they were like, “I came in through Chanti’s course or your Facebook group.” And I will say, yeah, probably 90% of the calls that I have came from you. So if that doesn’t say how many people Chanti works with in quizzes, I don’t know what will, but that is seriously awesome. So I caught you saying that you were on the brink of burnout many times. Tell us more about how…
You’re in this new space. No one really talked about quizzes, right? No one talked about this new… It was pretty much a novel industry especially in marketing. Everyone was doing what we have been doing, like webinars, online ads and all that good stuff. So what was it like being in this new industry, this new niche and starting to go through burnout and why didn’t you quit from there?
Chanti:
Yeah. Well, it’s been multiple times at multiple different junctions in my business growth journey, but in the beginning it’s really that self-doubt and imposter syndrome and fear of being visible and putting yourself out there. And that confidence that you can replicate the results you got for someone else with your next client, it may be a totally different industry. And then learning how to charge accordingly. I had no idea what I was doing. I used to charge $500 for a quiz funnel. And that would take weeks of work.
Jessmyn:
Yeah.
Chanti:
So it was not anywhere near enough, but part of the struggle was overcoming the… Not stigma. That’s not the right word, but the stereotype of what an online quiz is and what it is capable of because most people… Maybe not now, I think things are shifting and awareness is really growing around the potential of quizzes for lead generation. But when I was starting, there was the BuzzFeed quizzes everywhere and everybody just thought, “Oh, it’s just another piece of really easy to throw together content that fizzles out after a few days and no big deal.”
So it was bridging the divide between this is just a Buzzfeed quiz that’s random put together that has zero context or relevance to what someone actually wants or is looking for and then this whole other way of using quizzes as a tool for personalization, segmentation, research, learning about who your audience is at scale, building trust and connection through the psychology behind it. And nobody saw it as that. So there’s this huge education piece. And often a lot of times potential clients being like… When I did start charging more, being like, “What? Why would I pay that much for a quiz?”
So, yeah, it was just an interesting dance in the beginning of, yeah, trying to build up momentum and confidence and eventually it worked itself out, but, oh my gosh, I would just wake up at 5:00 to start working. And then my son would get up, get him ready for school or daycare at the time. He’d go to daycare and then it would be working all day. Put him to bed and then keep working. So in a way it was just this addiction and obsession to making it work. And I don’t think it had to be that hard, but that’s what I was modeled as a kid, was if you’re going to be successful…
And my dad is an entrepreneur of sorts. He’s always had his own business and I always saw him working so hard and the stress that comes along with that. So that’s just what I thought. That’s how I thought it had to be. So it’s been this retraining my brain activity in pulling back, seeing the bigger picture and asking like, “How can this be easier?”
Jessmyn:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yeah. Yeah. I totally get that. I feel the same way. I think it’s probably generational thing, right? Where our parents were like that and so we grew up thinking it has to be like that, but we’re also the generation that’s like, “No, thanks. I actually don’t want to live my life like this.” But what were some of the ways that you were able to actually work through one, the burnout, but also that decision-making and strategizing of, “Here’s how I should handle my schedule”?
Chanti:
So having support was huge game changer and that started with getting a VA for… I think I started at 20 hours a month, maybe. And so that was a learning curve in itself because no one teaches you how to delegate.
Jessmyn:
Yeah.
Chanti:
When you’re used to doing everything yourself it’s like, “Oh, what do I get them to do?” And I teach them how I want it done and there’s this whole process behind that, that I think intimidates people. And it’s not that common that the first time you hire someone to support you in that way, that it’s a total fit and you’re with them for years, right? Often it might not work out right away. It might not be a personality match. There’s so many factors. So it was really getting to that point where I had this amazing assistant and they knew what I needed and all the training was done.
And then it was like to them, I don’t have to do my own name voicing anymore or create the proposals or struggle to design some lame graphic in Canva because I’m the worst graphic designer on the planet. So all of those things lighten the load and then it’s like, “Okay, what’s next?” So bringing in contractors to help with the client workload. Wholly another learning curve that at first made everything way harder because you got to have hard conversations sometimes and get feedback and try. And it’s like, “Okay.” But once that was working, that too was a huge relief because suddenly it wasn’t just me doing all the things.
So it’s really been that getting support that’s been the biggest relief and burnout buster, but other things I guess would be just, yeah, working on that mindset of, “It does not have to be this hard and if it is, it’s not even worth it.” So I chill out and just softening in that way. And I think my word of the year in 2019 was trust, just trust the process, keep showing up, keep doing your best, but don’t feel like you’re in control or don’t try to be in control because it’s impossible. There’s so many things that are just out of our hands. So that was a huge difference too and is a continual thing, right? There’s no finish line.
Jessmyn:
Yeah. I love that. I think that was something big that I learned early on when working in Interact because we’re an early startup and Josh would say to me all the time, he’s like, “Just trust the process. It’ll happen when it happens.” But I think something that I never really thought of at the time was at what point… And this is also a question for you, but at what point do you say, “Okay, I need to either pivot and try something new or just scrap this whole idea”?
Chanti:
Yeah. Oh my gosh. Well, I think that the answer is a bit complicated because you have to factor in your level of belief and passion and confidence that this thing that you’re focusing on and putting so much work and heart into is worth it. And you don’t want to do that in a vacuum necessarily. It’s important to have buy-in from other people, even if that’s just them saying, “No, it is a really good idea. There’s nothing else like this, keep going.” It’s needed, right?
If you’re the only one that thinks that and everyone else is like, “Crazy girl,” then it might be time to just look within and ask yourself if you’re really on the right track. But I think if you have full belief that what you’re doing is worthwhile and you’re getting that insight from other people at the same time, then keep going. If you believe in it, keep going and keep experimenting. Don’t get too attached to doing it one way if that one way isn’t working. And so then the question is like, “Well, how long do you experiment with one thing?” And probably longer than most people do is the answer because we’ve got very short attention span and it’s very appealing to just move on to the next shiny object or cool strategy that that person you admire is teaching.
But I think also factoring in foundational stuff. And to me that is your offer, what you’re actually going to sell that is going to facilitate the transformation for your client or your customer. And people often skip past that stage because they’re want to get on to the marketing side of things and the making money and PR and beautiful branding, but that core offer of how you help people is the number one most important piece of the puzzle. So sticking with that and keeping it simple until you know that you’ve created something that people want before jumping to the fancy marketing strategies and beautiful website is really key and not talked about that much.
Jessmyn:
Yeah, I agree. I mean, even sometimes I see it online all the time where they… I mean, even with a quiz, right? They want to create a quiz so bad, but they never… People don’t know what to create their quiz around because they don’t have that foundational stuff. And they haven’t figured that part out before getting to the actual marketing strategy which a quiz falls into. But yeah. No, I think that’s great. I think too where this question is coming from is if people are struggling right now in their business and they’re like, “I don’t know what the next thing is,” how do you go from what you’re doing right now to actually scaling?
Chanti:
Yeah. So let me clarify if I understand the question. They’ve got their offer, it’s working, but they want to take things to the next level.
Jessmyn:
Yes.
Chanti:
Yeah. So that’s when all the cool marketing strategies can come in and those… I don’t know who invented the term, maybe it was… Scott Oldford comes to mind, but growth levers. So what levers can you pull that are going to just catapult you forward and building a community and attracting… I even hesitate to call them leads because it’s so much more than that. Attracting the human beings who need your help the most, who are super interested in what you have to offer and who are ready to take action and attracting more of them. In a way that’s automated, but also very connection-oriented at the same time. That I think is a game changer.
One thing that I’ve noticed in my own business and in behind the scenes of all of my clients over the years is that as my community, which for me and most of my clients is mainly in the form of my email list, much more so than social media even, as that grows, so does my ability to scale and yeah, just increase profit dramatically because all the really hard work of creating the scalable offer is done. It keeps getting refined and improved, but the foundation of it is done. So that’s when you can really focus on scaling, on just attracting more of those dream clients and customers. And that’s where a quiz can be incredibly powerful.
Jessmyn:
I love that. So when you did start to scale and you had to hire on other people, right? Was that a scary thing to go through? Just handing off. I guess when it’s your own business and it’s something that you put blood, sweat, and tears into, I imagine that’s a little hard to actually unload some of that onto someone else because it was your baby for so long, but what was that like? Was it a little scary? Were you ready for it and you’re just like, “Just take it, here’s what you need [crosstalk 00:25:25]”?
Chanti:
Oh my gosh, it’s super scary. It really is. And lots of trial and error too. You know Dawn, you guys work with her too and she’s my right-hand wing woman. And I love having her on my team because I know that she fully believes in the vision for what’s possible with this business. And that’s huge to me. I can feel that from her, whereas I’ve also worked with people who it’s like they don’t really care. To them it’s just money in the bank and you get that sense as the person who’s leading the charge and then yeah, that never feels good.
So yeah, attracting people who believe in what you’re doing. And I think that’s even more important than skillset necessarily because skillset can be taught. And so attitude, mindset, believing in the vision, those are the things that I’ve found to the most important. And even then it’s still totally scary. There’s another level of responsibility because you’re firstly responsible to yourself and your family, and your students, and your clients, but then suddenly you’re responsible for the livelihoods of other people. And it’s a really cool feeling at the same time because you see what’s possible and the impact that you and your business can have in the lives of others, not just through the results you get, the people that hire you, but through your team. And yeah, it’s exciting, but scary.
Jessmyn:
Yeah. It starts off scary, but it gets really exciting. No, I think that’s great. So I’m thinking back to when we first got in contact with you long, long… Feels forever ago now.
Chanti:
Yeah, it was.
Jessmyn:
It feels forever ago now. I guess, what was that process? How did you go from, “Okay, I found this cool idea of using quizzes for marketing and finding a platform you loved and then being like, okay, I’m going to work with you guys”?
Chanti:
For Interact, you mean?
Jessmyn:
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I guess just in general if anyone else is out there in a similar spot, whether it’s with another software, email marketing software and so on where they just like, “Okay, I’m going to pick this niche and I’m going to roll with it. And I want to start networking. I want to get into this. I want to meet people at that company and hopefully we’ll get to work with them and so on.”
Chanti:
Yeah, totally. Well, I tried so many different quits hosting softwares before really realizing Interact was my favorite and the one that I wanted to recommend to the people I worked with. So I tried tons of them. And so there’s the functionality side where like, “Is it easy to use? Is it cost-effective?” There’s all of that, but I feel like that’s the least important from my perspective. Okay, it is important. But what I love is how you guys reached out personally and just seemed genuinely interested in starting a conversation and starting a relationship.
And I think that that is so undervalued in our current online sphere. So we’re all about automation and all that, but there’s real power in having that one-on-one connection. So I really loved that. And then yeah, the first time I ever got to talk to Josh and he told me some of the story and philosophy behind what you’re building, I was sold because it was so aligned with how I see the potential of quizzes in online marketing, really as a tool to create connection and deeper empathy for your audience to have that better understanding of who they are and what they’re looking for and all of that comes into play. So when Josh was just echoing back all these things that I had thought of too, it just felt like a perfect fit. So there’s that. And then I remember when… Oh my gosh, what was it called? There was the crazy data leak and it had… The Cambridge Analytica. Okay.
Jessmyn:
Yeah.
Chanti:
Because that happened and in hindsight it didn’t really have an impact on the quiz industry, but at the time I was like, “Oh my God, is our whole industry going to explode because the Cambridge Analytica team created a quiz, but they promoted it on Facebook?” They was just harvesting people’s data. And then they were using that to influence ad targeting, which influences election results and all this stuff. So I remember talking to Josh about that and I was pretty concerned. And he was like, “Just so you know, we have worked with all these lawyers to make sure that we are so compliant and never ever making that data available to anyone else outside of the person who’s building that email list.” And so that was another layer on top of it. I’m like, “Okay, I love these guys.” [inaudible 00:31:59]. I had heard about other quiz hosting companies that were doing that and it was so shady because they weren’t telling people.
Jessmyn:
Well, I didn’t know that.
Chanti:
Yeah. Yeah. So it was just layer after layer of like, “These are my people and they are building something with serious staying power. This isn’t just a fad.” Josh and Matt saw the potential of quizzes long before anyone else and I think that Interact’s going to be around for the long haul because you’re so committed to building something with that ideal customer in mind and taking their feedback and yeah, making it better and better.
Jessmyn:
I love that. So to just, I guess, summarize all of that over time, even if there were sketchiness going on in the world, I guess, for lack of better words, there was always an alignment between you and Interact and that’s what helped you build with Interact basically. So if that makes sense.
Chanti:
Yeah, totally. And I think it’s the same like as I was saying with building a team. Are you aligned in your energy, in your attitude, in your belief of what is possible? And that’s top of the list of what matters when it comes to forming any partnership.
Jessmyn:
Yeah. Yeah. Was there any point, I guess in your time working with quizzes that you were like, “There’s other marketing things out there. There’s other ways to do marketing. I want to add that on or I want to switch it up. I want to change that”? Tell me a little bit about that.
Chanti:
Yeah. I mean, it’s really evolved in an interesting way because it started as like, “Oh, yeah, these are great tool for building your email list and generating leads and meeting sales,” and that’s what it was about. And then I discovered this is not just about leads and sales. I’m getting feedback from my clients that people are reading their quiz resolved and crying and-
Jessmyn:
Whoa.
Chanti:
… it’s so meaningful to them. It’s exactly what they needed to hear.
Jessmyn:
Awesome.
Chanti:
It gives them a reflection of who they really are and what they’re capable of. And so there’s this emotional element that is so powerful when you know how to harness it. And a lot of research and stuff has to happen in order to make that even possible. But that’s what I was doing. So seeing that, I realized this is so much more than just a marketing tool. This is a way to build a real sense of connection and to make a powerful first impression because often quizzes are happening at the very top of someone’s funnel. It’s the first or second encounter someone has with your brand.
And so how can we make that blow their minds and just be way beyond their expectations so that they have, yeah, that emotional connection to the person who is lifting them up and helping them and giving them actionable things that they can do to improve their situation? In whatever context or industry we’re talking about, there’s always things that you as the expert can do to meet your people where they’re at and give them what they need in order to move forward. So that was this whole other world that then I started focusing on the psychology behind quizzes, different personality types and the interactive aspect as well because that holds people’s attention in a much stronger way than static forms of content.
So then I was like, “Okay, what other interactive elements are there in marketing that can help to strengthen this connection even more so?” And they’re not as scalable, right? That’s hitting reply to your emails, having that back and forth conversation, DMs, video messages, all of these things that are also interactive and empathy driven. How can we add those into the mix? And so that was another layer. And then now I’m looking at how quizzes operate as part of an entire ecosystem that you have within your business. So I’m working on this new framework where there’s the sun, the seeds, the soil, and seasons because we’re going through different seasons all the time. It cannot constantly be summer, right?
Jessmyn:
Yeah. Exactly.
Chanti:
So looking at it from that angle of like, “Okay, how do quizzes fit into your business ecosystem as a whole?” And that’s been really fun because there’s elements of mindset and understanding your audience and refining your offer and having all that dialed in and also trusting the process of moving through the different seasons, because we all are in this culture of the hustle season and the harvest season as if that’s the only thing. But when you’re actually creating an offer, a quiz, an email funnel, you’re not in harvest season, you’re in planting season and it’s creation time and it’s hard and you’re not seeing the fruits of your labor.
So often people give up because they think that’s what it’s all about. But actually that act of creating something is part of the process. So it’s a little bit messy still in terms of the comprehensive framework, but quizzes fit in there because an essential part of that ecosystem is planting seeds, which we could say is also attracting leads.
Jessmyn:
I got to say you have the best analogy. That’s the best one I’ve heard, I think ever. But I just love how you started off years ago of this simple… Just like, “Okay, I’m going to help people create this.” Right? They’re going to create a quiz and then it just evolved over time and you thought of it in a new way. So even though your business technically is evolving and changing, at its core it’s still doing the same thing. It’s still accomplishing the same goal and it’s still helping in the same way you were helping people back then.
And I think that’s super interesting because I think a big thing that I’ve seen is just people wanting to pivot all the time because they’re like, “Ah, I thought this was my niche, I thought this was my audience, but actually I don’t want to do that anymore. So let me try something new.” And then maybe a couple of years down the line they try something new again. But prime example here, you can actually take that singular idea and grow with it and just change with it in new ways that is still growth even if it’s the same thing. I love that.
Chanti:
Yeah, totally. And it just becomes more nuanced and complex, but you get better at teaching it and doing it. So yeah, I see that a lot too, that constant drive to pivot and try new things before you’ve given the first thing a full chance, and I think it’s really common. We want novelty, right? We crave that. But novelty isn’t necessarily the best strategy for building a really successful business that has staying power.
Jessmyn:
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, because you’ve been growing this for years. So that’s like any kind of testament to how staying in that single idea can actually help you in the long run or help you more, help you grow more rather than pivoting all the time to the “next big thing”. Yeah, that’s honestly just… I hope that if you’re listening to this, I’m clearly… Oh my God, I can’t talk. I’m clearly explaining just the gravity of how awesome it is that Chanti was able to build her business over time with the same idea, but with new things within that idea. Hopefully that wasn’t a tongue twister [inaudible 00:41:52]. But now I was also thinking early on… In your bio I know you mentioned that you have kids and you mentioned that you had a son earlier, but you have three kids now, right?
Chanti:
I do.
Jessmyn:
Congratulations by the way, I know I’ve said it, but hopefully everyone else in their minds also give you a congratulations in spirit. But what is it like, I guess… Especially for women in this industry and just women in general working, what was it like trying to build a business, but also growing a family at the same time?
Chanti:
Well, yeah, it’s hard. It’s a juggle. Oh my gosh, when I was last pregnant, which was really not that long ago because I have a three-month-old baby, but there was a period where life was so busy because we were moving. We finally bought a little farm and moved to the country. It was super exciting, but also really intense. And there was a period where I felt like all I do is work and mother. I’m like, “Who am I? What else do I do?” So that just happens and you have to come back to yourself and carve out space to do what you want and make it all worthwhile. Right?
Nobody builds their own business to just be their own worst boss and be constantly pushing. So it was forcing myself to take a step back from the business because it’s not like I could take a step back from being there for my kids, right? Or growing a human. And so it’s constantly juggling priorities and I don’t really think there’s any such thing as balance personally. Does it exist? I don’t know. I haven’t found it yet. It’s more like you’re constantly trying to be at balance. You’re standing on that teeter-totter, moving your legs back and forth. And maybe you find that center of gravity for a moment, but then something happens and it’s like you’re balancing again. But whatever, you get a really strong abs from that. So [inaudible 00:44:38].
It’s like it comes down to choice and I choose to be there for my kids and make time for them and also make time to nurture my own business and grow that. And that comes back to the idea of seasons as well which is partly what inspired me to incorporate that into this framework that I’m building, because I’ve been through so many different seasons. I’ve been through the season of having to push really hard and be in that creation phase where everything feels uncertain. And I’ve been in the season of being able to take a step back and put my course on evergreen and spend more time with my kids because they’re really young and they need me.
And so it’s working through those seasons without judgment of yourself. You’re not a bad mom because you’re not making lunches every morning with fresh banana bread ready after school. And you’re not a bad business owner just because you’re not constantly sitting at your desk taking all the sales calls you could possibly take. Right? So it’s letting go of that judgment and just moving with the seasons because it’s all temporary. In the not too distant future, my kids will all be in school during the day.
And I think about that and I’m like, “Whoa, what will I do [crosstalk 00:46:25] with all this time?” So, yeah, it’s all temporary. And I have a seven-year-old and then my daughter is 18 months and my baby is three months. So there was a big gap in between my son and my daughter and I got some perspective from that because he grew up so fast. He wears leather dockets now and doesn’t really want that much to do with me. He’s super cool seven-year-old. So it happens really quickly and yeah, family’s always going to be the priority.
Jessmyn:
I love that though. I think it’s just so easy to get caught up in like you said, thinking you have to be at a desk all day and thinking that it’s not going to work if I don’t do it like this, right? And I think I love the way you put it because I feel that a big reason why people want entrepreneurship, start their own business is that they want to have that free time. And I love how you put it in just having no judgment because you’re right. Something might work for some time and then it doesn’t. I mean, I don’t have kids. I know I say that on every episode. I don’t have kids, but I think it’s just a part of life where you find something that works.
For me it was I was doing great waking up at 6:30 to exercise, get it out of the way and then our time changed and my body couldn’t do it anymore. And so for the last couple months I’ve been here and there trying to figure it out. But yeah, I love the way you put it. Just having no judgment on yourself. If it’s working, it’s working and move with it. If it stops working, you’re going to be okay. I love that.
Chanti:
Yeah, totally. There’s often just life’s little wake up calls, right? When I realized all I do is take care of my kids and work, like “Something’s got to shift,” right?
Jessmyn:
Yeah.
Chanti:
So then you just recommit and make a change and do your best and keep going. And then it’s inevitable. Something else will happen and you’ll need to rebalance and refocus. So it’s just the dance, right?
Jessmyn:
Yeah. Do you feel like in this time or in a time, I guess, in the past, if it’s now or has already happened, but in a time of growth in your business where you didn’t want to also miss out on family stuff. How are you able to use your analogy of move with the seasons? But how are you able to do that while you’re growing? It’s literally happening and that also happens super fast, but you also don’t want to miss out on some of that home life stuff.
Chanti:
Yeah, for sure. Well, sometimes I’ll think of it as like there are sprints, but mostly it’s a marathon, but there are periods where you have to sprint. So when my daughter was six months old, I realized we needed to buy a house. We were renting this tiny house and she was starting to crawl. And even with just two kids, it was just not enough space. So I went into sprint mode to put together a launch that felt bigger than anything that I’ve ever done in the past and really stretched my comfort zone. And I knew that it would just be a six-week sprint and then after that I could pull back and chill out and have more time again.
So that helps me because even though I say there are no finish lines, sometimes there are. That was a little mini finish line and it helped me to get closer to an important goal that ultimately would help my family. And I knew it was just temporary. So I think when it… If it’s constant and there’s no end in sight, that’s really depleting and hard to face. But when there is, you know that it’s all good, you’ll have time soon. And yeah, even during that sprint, you can still make time and try to have boundaries.
Jessmyn:
Yeah. Yeah. Are you able to still get some type of separation between your work and the work day, I guess you could say, versus home, relaxing, family time, et cetera?
Chanti:
Yeah. Well, you have to. So I mean, I have to. Not telling you what you have to do. But for me it was when we had our tiny little house, I didn’t have a separate workspace, so I would try and do things, but I could hear just the chaos of life all around. So I rented a little office space away from the house just to be able to have that as workspace and then come home. And I don’t take my computer out anymore. Now I have a little office in our house and I try to do that here too. So I just leave my laptop in the office and it’s a little bit hard with the baby because I’m constantly stopping, feeding him, hanging out with him in the sunshine and then coming back and sitting here. So it’s back and forth, but that’s temporary.
For the most part it’s like, “Okay, this is where the magic happens and then at the end of the day, I’m going to close my computer. I’m going to write down what I’m going to start working on tomorrow.” And that’s it. And it did not used to be like that. Like I said, it used to be like, “Okay, kids in bed, so now I’m just going to crack it open again and keep going,” but that’s not sustainable.
Jessmyn:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yeah. That’s pretty wild. For me it’s like once I’m away from my desk area, there’s no way I could get back into it. I’ve tried, tried many times. Tried many times. But I love that idea of closing your computer and writing down what you need to get done tomorrow. Is that something that you do every day so you keep track or is it just your way of like, “Okay, let me organize my thoughts, close it out. And then tomorrow I can look at this again and start from there”?
Chanti:
Yeah. Yeah. So every day I try to make a plan for the next day. So I don’t know when I started doing that, but I used to sit down and not know what to necessarily work on. Okay. If there’s a big fire, I’m going to put that out first, but then what? And I used to use a [inaudible 00:54:27] fashion notebook, Interact.
Jessmyn:
Nice.
Chanti:
You can see the video, you guys made Interact notebook. And bullet journal style, what am I going to focus on. So we have a [inaudible 00:54:42], I’m terrible at using it. I much prefer my notebook with like, “Okay, here’s what needs to happen tomorrow.” And if I’m really on it, I’ll prioritize, “This is the first thing that needs to happen.” And then there’s no hemming and hawing when I sit down at my desk and like, “What am I going to do?”
Jessmyn:
Yeah. Yeah. I got to say there are days where I probably waste 30 minutes to an hour thinking about what I’m going to do for that day after all my calls are in between all my calls and I had to… I actually had to do something similar. I had to get… I found it on Amazon. It’s like in daily organizer. So I’ve tried to get planners. I’ve tried to make my own planner. I’ve tried to just straight up use Google calendar, which is the only consistent thing I think I have used. But yeah, I have to every single day write down what my priorities are for the day and then also what projects I’m working on aside from that, or long-term projects. And I mean, it also helps out with… At the end of the day, I can feel comfortable actually turning off my computer and stepping away from work because I’m like, “Okay, I know exactly what I’m doing and what I need to do next. And I don’t have to sit here wondering.”
Chanti:
Yes, totally. That’s a good point. And in a way, you’re just closing the loop of, “Oh, what am I going to do tomorrow?” And shutting down that stress response that comes when you don’t have a plan.
Jessmyn:
Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. It is pretty crazy. I also have this thing where I can’t look at my emails first thing in the morning anymore because I end up finding something or someone asks me to do something and it takes longer than I thought. And then everything I thought I was going to do for the day gets pushed back and then I don’t do it. And I’m like, “Oh, no.” So for me, I to have it written down. I have to follow the schedule. I’m just very structured person if no one can tell.
But I have to follow the schedule and anything outside of that, I have to wait until lunchtime or the end of the day to actually look at that and then pick and choose like, “How long is this actually going to take me to do?” And if it’s going to take me more than 10 seconds, then got to wait till-
Chanti:
Yeah. Yeah, totally. I’ve started in my little notebook. I have emails and then under that, I’ll put the names of the people that I need to reply to. Yeah. If it takes more than 10 seconds, their name’s going on the list and then I’ll just try to batch all of that. So you can set aside two hours on Friday and crush it instead of letting the inbox rob you of focus every single day because that’s the name of the game, right?
Jessmyn:
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I have one last thing that came to mind which is really just with all this talk of juggling work and home life. Is there any point where you do have time to yourself and how do you prevent a different burnout where… Like you said, sometimes you feel it’s just work and momming. That could be another type of burnout that other people experience. So how do you prevent yourself from getting that far?
Chanti:
Yeah. Well, good question. And again, it’s the seasons thing. So right now I’m pretty much have my little baby glued to me all night after the other two kids go to bed because babies just really like to stay up late, if you didn’t know that. He doesn’t want to go to bed until 10:30 and that’s when I go to bed too. So normally there would be that time after the kiddos go to bed where, yeah, it’s just time to binge-watch something or read or do yoga or journal or whatever. It’s that breathing room. Right now not so much, but I’m feeling pretty lucky because we got some extra childcare just-
Jessmyn:
Nice.
Chanti:
… early in the morning because that’s the hardest time for my husband and myself. And yeah, she’s been coming for a few hours and helping out. And then I have actually a bit of time to do some movement, whether it’s just a little yoga practice or a full long workout. And that’s me time in a sense, even though sometimes my toddler will be climbing all over me. But having that is huge. I don’t know. I think motherhood is you need to train your body for it because those little humans are so heavy. I’m like, “If I’m out of shape, I’m not going to be able to keep up with them or have any energy because the sleep deprivation too.” So yeah, even that one hour a day is really helpful. So to me, it’s quality over quantity.
Jessmyn:
I love that. No, that’s a good point. That’s a good point because at least you’re still taking care of yourself in a way that’s meaningful versus not at all, right?
Chanti:
Yeah. Yeah. Exactly.
Jessmyn:
It’s so funny that you made the comment about little humans being heavy. Not the same thing, but I went on a very short hike last weekend, brought my dog with me, made the mistake of not getting a backpack to hold her in. And she does this thing… She’s only 10 pounds, but she does this thing where she doesn’t want to walk anymore. So she just stead stops her whole body from moving. So me, my brother and his wife had to take turns carrying her because we were just like, “How is she so heavy? She’s 10 pounds. She’s just a pup.” I mean, she’s an adult dog, but she’s [crosstalk 01:01:27] a dog. And so I just can’t imagine… I mean, with kids, they’re also constantly growing and getting heavier, so power to you. I couldn’t carry my 10-pound dog on a hike.
Chanti:
I know. I know. A little babe is only 13 pounds and even though like ah, it can put you down.
Jessmyn:
Yeah. It’s wild. It’s wild. Well, thank you so much for sharing your story with us today. I do have my last two questions that I always close out with if you’re up for it.
Chanti:
Let’s do it.
Jessmyn:
All right. So first, what are three things that most people wouldn’t know about you?
Chanti:
Oh my gosh. If I weren’t a copywriter/quiz demo strategist, I would probably still be working in restaurants cooking.
Jessmyn:
Oh, cool.
Chanti:
And maybe I would have a food truck.
Jessmyn:
Ooh, I love that.
Chanti:
Yeah. Yeah. That’s the direction I was going until my major pivot. What else? Oh my gosh, I should have prepared for this.
Jessmyn:
Sorry I have to bring it on you.
Chanti:
I have big farm dreams and would love to be able to grow all our own food or most of it.
Jessmyn:
That’s awesome.
Chanti:
So working on that. Oh my gosh, what else? Why am I so boring? I’ve been loving reading fantasy romance lately.
Jessmyn:
Ooh.
Chanti:
It’s my new jam.
Jessmyn:
I love that. Awesome. I’ve been on this like just thriller books.
Chanti:
Ooh.
Jessmyn:
Yeah. I read this book called… Oh my gosh, I might get this wrong, but I think it’s called The… Oh, yeah, it’s called The Silent Patient and-
Chanti:
Oh, yeah, I heard about that one.
Jessmyn:
Yeah. That one was a good one. If they ever make it into a movie or a show, I’m there.
Chanti:
[inaudible 01:03:47].
Jessmyn:
And right now I’m reading this book called… It’s actually right next to me. It’s called The One and they actually just released it on Netflix as a show. And I hadn’t gotten very far, so I was just too excited. I watched the whole show, but I’m curious to see now if the book is similar or not. But I’m this person where I would rather watch the movie or show before reading the book, which I know is [crosstalk 01:04:17].
Chanti:
Yeah. I think I watched The One. Is it about the software that gives you your perfect match? Yeah, [crosstalk 01:04:23].
Jessmyn:
Yeah. Yeah.
Chanti:
It was good.
Jessmyn:
Which I thought was also really interesting for me. Just being in tech and understanding not the scary, murdery stuff, but understanding the leg, building your business and tech and whatnot.
Chanti:
Yeah. Totally.
Jessmyn:
Totally know about murder either. Just kidding. So my last question for you is what is a single piece of advice you would give yourself at the start of it all?
Chanti:
Oh, man. Probably something like, yeah, trust the process and invest in relationships. Those are two biggies. You got to put me on the spot, I’m not that clever, but…
Jessmyn:
No, but it’s still really important. It’s still important to close out that way. Awesome. So before I do forget, where can people find you online if they’re looking?
Chanti:
Yeah. You can find me on my website, chantizak.com. You can take my quiz if you want to figure out what type of quiz you should create which is chantizak.com/quiz. And I’m on Instagram at Chanti Zak and Facebook at Chanti Zak as well.
Jessmyn:
Awesome. You can also find her on our website, tryinteract.com.
Chanti:
Yeah.
Jessmyn:
[inaudible 01:05:57]. Well, thank you so much Chanti and I loved having you on here and for everyone else listening or watching, we will see you next time. Bye.
Chanti:
Thanks, Jess.